Episode 2: Attack of the Clones (John Williams)
Apr 27, 2002 at 1:32 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 19

Redwoood

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Hey guys!

Haven't been around for a while, I know.
And now I'm posting here, of all possible forums - who
would have thought that
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?

Well anyway. Has anyone bought/heard the new Star Wars
score?
The CD has been lying around here since Wed and I've listened
to it four or five times. It's quite different from the other
movies but I kinda like it. Though it's not quite as good as the others either. Or maybe I'll have to get used to it, wo knows.
(two word: electric guitar
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)

So just in case anyone of you also got this CD just write a
couple of lines how you like it etc.
And all you others out there that haven't heard it yet:
What are you waiting for ????

(any answer other that "for the movie to come out" will not be
accepted
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)

Bye

Redwoood
 
Apr 30, 2002 at 1:46 AM Post #2 of 19
ts, I can't believe nobody else got this CD.
One of the greatest composers of our time releases a new installment of - what many believe - his best work and nobody cares... go figure.

Well, maybe you need a review first.

Personally, I'm starting to like this score better the more I listen to it. It's a bit difficult at times and you
have to work a bit more. The love theme - that's
the one you're gonna see on MTV
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- is a nice piece... not spectacular, not as good as the older themes or duel of fates, but I still find myself humming it from time to time.
In general, this CD is much darker than episode one for example (except for the love theme).
There is a lot of emphasis on atmospheric pieces rather than melodic ones. Also, there is (not typical for Williams) a lot of percussion in this score. Very complex stuff, take some time to see through it. Overall, this score has a somewhat different feel to it, I don't think it will ever be as good as the older ones, but I'm still working my way through. In any case it's better than 95 % of film music released so far.

Well to sum it up a bit, if you like the Star Wars scores (and who doesn't) there is no reason not to listen to this CD, but expect to find something different.

Bye

Redwoood
 
Apr 30, 2002 at 4:05 AM Post #3 of 19
I haven't got it yet, though I probably will. Incidentally, I know for sure that one of my friends, who is a big Star Wars fan and music enthusiast, will NOT be getting this album before the movie. Why, you ask? Because he did get the album for Episode 1 before the movie, and since he had purposefully avoided advance reviews w/ spoilers, he was rather upset to see the title of one of the final tracks giving away a rather big event. Namely, "Qui-Gon's Noble End".
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Apr 30, 2002 at 4:13 AM Post #4 of 19
yeah, I know what you mean.
I tried not to look at the track listings, but this was absolutely impossible. Well, this time the titles
don't give away much, so I didn't see too much.

I haven't had a look at the liner notes yet, and I won't do until I see the movie, that's for sure.

BTW: I think we can expect a lot more from AOTC
than TPM delivered, so once again there's something to look forward to....

Bye

Redwoood
 
May 1, 2002 at 3:45 AM Post #5 of 19
Wow, I think the real star of this score is the love theme. It's not even a love theme! I think it has real struggle to it. A very overlooking "watch your back" sound. The rest of the album seems to be pretty much standard fare of Williams. A lot of the action parts really reminded me of the Jurassic Park score more than his other scores. Overall pretty good, worth it just for the love theme parts
 
May 1, 2002 at 5:51 PM Post #7 of 19
Personally, I find the electric guitar part pretty disturbing, but I guess that's just my taste.

IMHO this album is not exactly "Williams standard fare" . It is much less melody-based than what JW usually does - especially with star wars. The Leitmotif approach doesn't seem to be the driving factor - from what I can hear on the CD. The only really prominent theme is the love theme (although Anakin's, the Force's, the droids' and Vader's theme are used, but very sparingly)
There is an interesting emphasis on percussion in this score - track 3 is a good example for that.
It's almost like Williams doing the Elfman thing... very interesting

Bye

Redwoood
 
May 3, 2002 at 3:14 AM Post #8 of 19
I don't particularly remember what the score to episode one sounded like -- I saw the movie once, disliked it, and never really saw it again, let alone bought anything associated to the movie. I just finished watching Return of the Jedi again on TV (it was just on Fox) and I was reminded of the aspect of John Williams's music which stands out as both the best thing and worst thing about his music -- his complete lack of originality.

Everywhere in the score he either takes from famous composers or less-famous composers... he often steals from other movie scores as well. Watching the scene with Vader, the Emperor, and Crack-Addled Skywalker, I was reminded very much of the music in Bergman's masterpiece, The Seventh Seal. Often when I listen to Stravinsky, Bartok, or Tcherepnin, I pick up on themes or entire staves that were simply ripped off by John Williams.

In the end, though, I don't think it's such a bad thing -- but I don't take Williams seriously as a real composer. His Star Wars scores have nothing original but I think he did do a good job in Star Wars, Empire, and Return of fashioning the music he assembled into a coherent and cohesive whole that complemented the movies quite well.

And for what it's worth, I really did like Star Wars... just not Episode One. If you haven't noticed, I'm also not a die-hard fan.
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But I do love good classical music, and while John Williams's plagiarism pisses me off sometimes, I still like the composers he copied.
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May 7, 2002 at 6:23 PM Post #9 of 19
Well, accusing Williams of plagiarism is pretty harsh, I'd say.
While I have never seen The Seventh Seal, I can hardly believe it was copied identically.
"Inspired by" is probably more accurate. Oh, a very important "inspiration' for Star Wars (that you left out surprisingly) is Holst's Planets. This was a very noticable influence for the Star Wars scores.

In general, these plagiarism/inspiration claims are
a big problem in film scores. One has to take into account though that film composers have very little time and many other restrictions to create their works.
In addition, classical music is much more easily available today than it was a hundred years ago, and one can assume that a modern day composer has heard many more pieces than any of the old
masters. I could imagine that these could stay in
a composer's memory and subconsciously influence a score he writes - and considering that it is much more imporant how well the music fits into the film than how original it is, it is quite possible that the one or other 'slips through' that is a bit too close to some 3rd party work.

I am no composer myself and I do not know how their creative minds work, but I, as a computer scientist , also have to use my creativity sometimes to solve a problem. For example, there are cases where a linked list is the best (maybe even the only) solution for a particular problem. I have not invented the concept of linked lists, but still I use them almost instinctively. My creative mind is pre-determined to use them for whatever reason. While I realise that writing computer programs is not comparable to writing music, I think that the human minds involved might work in a similar way.

There are other film composers that deliver much more questionable performances with regrads to originality. Others may be original in their themes but horribly boring by endlessly repeating their own styles.
John Williams has a very recognisable style, but it sounds fresh every time, not boring. While he sometimes tends to copy from his own works ( the love theme in AOTC for example is very close to 'Hook' - but there are even worse people out there, choughHornercough ) I have yet to find a tune that he directly copied from somebody else.

At the end it probably depends on yourself how much 'inspiration' you are willing to endure. Or if a mediocre original work is worth more to you than an excellent 'copy'.


Bye

Redwoood
 
May 7, 2002 at 7:13 PM Post #10 of 19
Quote:

Everywhere in the score he either takes from famous composers or less-famous composers... he often steals from other movie scores as well. Watching the scene with Vader, the Emperor, and Crack-Addled Skywalker, I was reminded very much of the music in Bergman's masterpiece, The Seventh Seal. Often when I listen to Stravinsky, Bartok, or Tcherepnin, I pick up on themes or entire staves that were simply ripped off by John Williams.


I am tempted to say that that's a good thing for me becoz I'll never listen to Stravinsky, Bartok or Tcherepnin
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If John Williams gives me a taste of them, so much the better
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But then I might, you never know
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May 7, 2002 at 7:45 PM Post #11 of 19
Frankly I'm happy that most movie score composers are inspired by, and perhaps even directly copy the great composers. Originality is a fine goal, but I would subordinate originality to interesting, moving music every time. I prefer a rehashed but enthralling piece of music to a boring original. I find certain sections of the Star Wars trilogy scores to be quite enthralling, especially in the correct context, the movie theatre experience.
 
May 8, 2002 at 7:40 AM Post #12 of 19
Oh great, my post didn't get through? Ugh... I know AOL is finally going down the drain, but does that mean the T3 servers Steve Case buys for the college have to follow?
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I'll try to re-type it one of these days when I have time... and if I remember what I wrote (I wrote the post last night and only now realize it never showed up).
 
May 8, 2002 at 6:15 PM Post #14 of 19
LOL, Red.
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I'll try to write it up again...

First, addressing the issue of plagiarism vs. inspiration... in listening to Bartok and Stravinsky I found dozens of consecutive measures lifted directly from the music into Star Wars fame. I think that's about as close as it gets to plagiarism. Even if Martin Luther King, Jr. plagiarizes, it's still plagiarism.

That said, I'm not only willing to "forgive" John Williams for this lack of honest creativity but I applaud his efforts to a degree. Whether or not the originals he lifted are his music, the score could still be said to be his -- though he's composer of only part of it, he did arrange the whole thing. And I must say, as I said before, I'm happy with the scores of the Trilogy. As I also said, I'd rather have him arrange the works of geniuses -- especially geniuses whose work I love -- than drop his own attempt at music on the movies which were greatly enhanced by a complementary soundtrack.

Now, Joe -- please try to listen to these composers for yourself! You can't really consider this an "exposure" as it is really still a butchering of the music, even if you do come out with a nice roast at the end (perhaps bouillabaisse would be closer?). Stravinsky and Bartok both have plenty of very accessible music -- try to listen to Stravinsky's famed Rite of Spring. If not that, go for Firebird. Both have many elements of classical modernism, but I think they're very accessible if you try hard enough. It's worth the effort.

Bartok has a lot of music based on Hungarian themes -- his concerto is like this and sounds wonderful. Check it out at your library (I don't know if you guys in HK have CDs for check-out in libraries, though).

Oh yeah, the other thing I mentioned in the original post was how you could compare the use of linked lists in a computer program with music. In music, the use of an established form is well accepted, just like it's accepted that one can write an original sonnet of fourteen lines or an original In memoriam style poem using Tennyson's ABBA meter.

It all comes down to where originality is expected. In computer programming, as my folks always tell me (both are programmers), a program can be written almost like a work of art -- efficient, small, clean, precise, and original. But it doesn't have to be, and what people are looking for is functionality. Case in point: Microsoft programs. Works of art? Puh-lease...

But in music, what is functionality? In the case of John Williams writing a score, functionality is complementing the action of the movie with the score he arranges. In Hitchkock's Psycho, the budget only allowed the use of strings. The composer worked within this framework to create a score that is famous the world over and has seen derivatives in countless movie scores.

My point, though, is that when you take the music of John Williams out of the context of the Star Wars films, what is the functionality? It falls into the realm of l'art pour l'art -- art for the sake of art. It either sounds good or it doesn't. Taking from one composer, then another, then another, and then adding in one's own transitions may be fine for a movie where the music is secondary to the visual action on the screen. But off the screen, it would be difficult to arrange something better than any one of those great works.

That's why I contend that John Williams's work was great on the movie, but the music itself as independent and self-sufficient art does not stand up to the rigors of close examination. It becomes pop-classical. It's no wonder that the Boston Pops' favorite conductor is John Williams -- that's the kind of music they play. But I'd be surprised to see it played on a regular basis by the BSO -- which, incidentally, they do not. In fact, the BSO plays a lot of modern crap, sometimes worse than John Williams's arrangements. But that stuff is experimental, it's new, it's original... and frankly, if I want to hear Bartok and Stravinsky -- and even Holst -- I'll listen to them. But it would take some genius to make the combination of these parts be lesser than one whole arrangement. And, unfortunately, I don't think John Williams is that genius.
 
May 8, 2002 at 10:29 PM Post #15 of 19
Quote:

Originally posted by DanG
LOL, Red.
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I'll try to write it up again...
First, addressing the issue of plagiarism vs. inspiration... in listening to Bartok and Stravinsky I found dozens of consecutive measures lifted directly from the music into Star Wars fame. I think that's about as close as it gets to plagiarism. Even if Martin Luther King, Jr. plagiarizes, it's still plagiarism.


Well, please give me the names of the pieces that
John Williams copied. I would really like to verify
that myself.

Thanks

Bye

Redwoood
 

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