[Sleestack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch And I'm saying you're wrong -- by your definition, headphones would be utterly unable to convey any soundstage at all. Two monaural earcups pressed against the head! There's *no* objective soundstage there, none. It is nonexistent. It doesn't, if you just use the more reasonable definition (involving subjective perception) in the first place. Again, DOH.

Last time I owned a pair of AKG K000s, they had plenty of sound leakage to be producing soundstage, albeit a very small one. I don't think you would need magical tools to be able to measure those properties... just some very sensitive mics and good software.

What would make that definition more "reasonable?" Again, why not just use a different term? Furthermore, with a definition that involves human perception, how can you ever argue that one device has better soundstage than another? It would always be relative to the specific listener. Do you follow that or are you always stuck on DOH?

 

[Sleestack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch I'm not going to discuss with you any further, as it's clear you simply ignore the points I'm making, chop out most of the text and select some loosely related topic to comment on. It's clear you would like to run this discussion into the ground rather than answer the points I've made. I can only conclude it's because you've been out-argued. Adieu.

I've addressed every point you have made and have done nothing to distort your sense of logic. I wouldn't discuss this any further if I were you either.

 

[fewtch]

BTW, I'm not trying to drag you onto "my" playing field. I'm saying that in order to compare the soundstage of headphones vs. speakers, you *must* use a perceptual definition of soundstage rather than an objective definition, because headphone soundstage is created perceptually. I have outlined why (I hope clearly) in my posts above. If you prefer to stubbornly cling to a definition that simply doesn't work when it comes to headphones, there's no way to compare speakers and headphones in the first place (and thanks a lot for wasting everyone's time

).

 

[Sleestack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch BTW, I'm not trying to drag you onto "my" playing field. I'm saying that in order to compare the soundstage of headphones vs. speakers, you *must* use a perceptual definition of soundstage rather than an objective definition, because headphone soundstage is created perceptually. I have outlined why (I hope clearly) in my posts above. If you prefer to stubbornly cling to a definition that simply doesn't work when it comes to headphones, there's no way to compare speakers and headphones in the first place (and thanks a lot for wasting everyone's time ).

You don't have to use a perceptually based definition of soundstage. You can just use a different term. Why is that so difficult? In what other circumstance would you modify a definition so that it "works" for a specific medium, and then use that modified definition for a basis of comparison to another medium which you judge by a different but "same" definition?

I have been the one making it very clear that I believe this disucssion is fruitless (although not necessarily lacking in entertainment value) because there was no greement on the underlying definition. People have chosen to ignore that and continue to debate the issue, much to MY frustration.

 

[Orpheus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleestack I respect the fact that you have a different definition of soundstage. However, I don't think either of us can conclusively say who has the "right" definition. All we can do is acknowledge that we have different definitions and understand why that would lead us to a difference in opinion. Again, I don't believe perception needs to be brought into the equation. Take a live performance, position youself at a normal listening position and put the necessary instruments to be able to read all the phsyical properties you can. Take a variety of speakers and use the same instruments to measure the same physical properties. Is there any reason one can't objectively determine if a given speaker system is better than another system in reproducing the measureable physical properties of the live performance? Obviously if you define soundstage as the interaction of physical properties and how the human mind perceives such information, those physical measurements alone will not determine anything. But, you will also never have a standard to determine whether one system can produce a better soundstage than another system because human perception can be entirely different from one person to the next. I don't question your own personal experience. I just think we're talking about 2 different things which we both believe constitute "soundstage."

you're probably right... we're talking about different things.

as for objectively quantifying soundstage, well, that's very hard, no matter how you define it. unfortunately, no, you cannot seperate perception from the physical when it comes to this area.

even when comparing high-end speakers/headphones to one another, objectively doing so is near impossible. since you're familiar with Stereophile--take a look at Atkinson's frequency graphs of different high-end speakers. they're all worlds apart! what that tells me is that once speakers are made well enough, then it it's really perception that judges better from best.

we can't even agree on what soundstage is--measuring soundstage performance would be impossible.

now, really, all this ties in with the topic of the thread--the insanity of perfection.

my statement: It is insane to not seek perfection. As there is a woman for every man in the world, there is a system of audio reproduction for every ear.

It is great that audio is so subjective, otherwise we would all own the same system.

 

[Sleestack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orpheus you're probably right... we're talking about different things. as for objectively quantifying soundstage, well, that's very hard, no matter how you define it. unfortunately, no, you cannot seperate perception from the physical when it comes to this area. even when comparing high-end speakers/headphones to one another, objectively doing so is near impossible. since you're familiar with Stereophile--take a look at Atkinson's frequency graphs of different high-end speakers. they're all worlds apart! what that tells me is that once speakers are made well enough, then it it's really perception that judges better from best. we can't even agree on what soundstage is--measuring soundstage performance would be impossible. now, really, all this ties in with the topic of the thread--the insanity of perfection. my statement: It is insane to not seek perfection. As there is a woman for every man in the world, there is a system of audio reproduction for every ear. It is great that audio is so subjective, otherwise we would all own the same system.

We do use subjective impressions to make assessments about soundstage. However, I don't think that you can't separate the objective from the subjective, but that the process would be tedious and people have faith in their ability to make a subjective assessment without objective data. We do that all the time when it comes to sensory perceptions. That being said, it isn't necessary to do so. While it may be very difficult, there is no reason exisiting tools can't be used to determine the acoustic properties of a live performance and then be used to compare the playback of that performance on a set of speakers or headphones. As for stereophile data on speakers... the fact that different speakers have different objective results simply means that they are different. The ultimate preference for one over the other is just a subjective preference. Nobody can say it is wrong, b/c there is no right or wrong when it comes to preference. Nevertheless, the objective criteria still does exist. But you are correct, without an accepted definition of soundstage, we could all be talking about apples and oranges.

I completely agree that finding the perfect system is a subjective process for almost everybody, including me. The enjoyment of audio necessarily involves perception and only the listener can determine if he like what he is hearing. For me, I have found my perfect systems and have ended my upgraditis... but perceptions can always change.