[Dusty Chalk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleestack Actually, so much further and so much better. It seems to me that we don't agree on something fundamental (i.e. what constitutes soundstage). Therefore, I don't expect that we will ever be in agreement on issues relating to the topic of soundstage. I'm ahppy to continue this dicussion, but I think at this point, it is pretty clear we have entered the realm of semantics rather than meaningful discussion.

I could care less whether or not we agree/whether or not you're convinced. I just wish you'd quit saying that it's a matter of physics with loudspeakers, and it's matter of psychology with headphones. As long as you keep saying that, I'll keep correcting you.

 

[Sleestack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusty Chalk I could care less whether or not we agree/whether or not you're convinced. I just wish you'd quit saying that it's a matter of physics with loudspeakers, and it's matter of psychology with headphones. As long as you keep saying that, I'll keep correcting you.

Well it certainly seems like you care. You certainly have given enough typing time to the matter... however, how much thought you've put into it is a different issue. I'm not saying it is entirely physical or psychological for speakers or heapdhones. IF you would actually think about what I said...

1) My definition of soundstage necessarily involves the physical aspect of what a speaker is actully doing... i.e moving soundwaves through a physical space. Obviously perception is required to appreciate the soundstage, but the physics exist regardless of whether or not human perception is invloved.

2) Your definition of soundstage has to do with how the mind processes sound and how soundwaves are introduced to the ear. It has everything to do with human perception.

3) We have a fundamental difference in our respective definitions of "soundstage." It is not that one is entirely physical and one is entirely psychological... it is that our definitions make different assumptions

What's there for you to correct? If you want to correct my definition of soundstage, so be it, but you have yet to do so. Beat a dead horse if you want, but relevance would be nice.

 

[Dusty Chalk]

I'm lost -- when did you define your definition of soundstage? You've referred to it now as including mostly physics -- which I completely don't understand. It's not physics, physics is a tool to use to think about these things (just like math and language and abstraction are tools to think about these things).

Soundstage is the perception of the acoustic space of the recording venue. The soundstage of an audio system is how accurately it conveys this particular perception.

Stereophile

Hmm...close enough.

You're absolutely right that mine is purely perception -- because that's what I thought it was. I challenge you to define it in any other way. You can explain how it works using physics, yes -- but that's not definition, that's physics. That's the how, not the what.

So, before I can correct your definition of soundstage, you have to produce said definition. You've danced around the issue, but you have yet to define it.

You're one to talk about relevance and typing a lot -- I've only typed in response to your relevant "salient" points, which means you've typed twice as much as I have, because I haven't even bothered addressing every issue and tangent that you went off on, since they're not relevant.

 

[Sleestack]

You really do like arguing for no reason don't you? It's not like you have given a definition of soundstage until now, however it was abundantly clear to me what you were talking about. Likewise, I don't think there is any confusion about what I believe determines soundstage.

Per your reference, Stereophile's definition of soundstage:

Soundstaging, soundstage presentation: The accuracy with which a reproducing system conveys audible information about the size, shape, and acoustical characteristics of the original recording space and the placement of the performers within it.

That definition in no way requires perception unless you believe the "conveyance of audible information" requires human perception. I don't know what you are reading, but show me exactly where the definition necessarily requires human perception. It simply refers to what the reproducing system is doing. Admittedly, my reference to physics was a bit broad and may have been confusing to you.... I should have been referring to physical properties, soundwaves, space, etc.

Do you understand yet? We have different definitions of soundstage and will therefore never agree on our original point. I am happy to adopt the definition provided by sterophile because it is entirely consistent with everything I have said to this point. Please explain how your understanding of soundstage is consistent with the definition you have provided. Perhaps you are talking about the term "headstage" which is often used on this forum?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusty Chalk I'm lost -- when did you define your definition of soundstage? You've referred to it now as including mostly physics -- which I completely don't understand. It's not physics, physics is a tool to use to think about these things (just like math and language and abstraction are tools to think about these things). Soundstage is the perception of the acoustic space of the recording venue. The soundstage of an audio system is how accurately it conveys this particular perception. Stereophile Hmm...close enough. You're absolutely right that mine is purely perception -- because that's what I thought it was. I challenge you to define it in any other way. You can explain how it works using physics, yes -- but that's not definition, that's physics. That's the how, not the what. So, before I can correct your definition of soundstage, you have to produce said definition. You've danced around the issue, but you have yet to define it. You're one to talk about relevance and typing a lot -- I've only typed in response to your relevant "salient" points, which means you've typed twice as much as I have, because I haven't even bothered addressing every issue and tangent that you went off on, since they're not relevant.

 

[Orpheus]

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Originally Posted by Sleestack You really do like arguing for no reason don't you? It's not like you have given a definition of soundstage until now, however it was abundantly clear to me what you were talking about. Likewise, I don't think there is any confusion about what I believe determines soundstage. Per your reference, Stereophile's definition of soundstage: Soundstaging, soundstage presentation: The accuracy with which a reproducing system conveys audible information about the size, shape, and acoustical characteristics of the original recording space and the placement of the performers within it. That definition in no way requires perception unless you believe the "conveyance of audible information" requires human perception. I don't know what you are reading, but show me exactly where the definition necessarily requires human perception. It simply refers to what the reproducing system is doing. Admittedly, my reference to physics was a bit broad and may have been confusing to you.... I should have been referring to physical properties, soundwaves, space, etc. Do you understand yet? We have different definitions of soundstage and will therefore never agree on our original point. I am happy to adopt the definition provided by sterophile because it is entirely consistent with everything I have said to this point. Please explain how your understanding of soundstage is consistent with the definition you have provided. Perhaps you are talking about the term "headstage" which is often used on this forum?

No matter how the terms of sound and soundstage are explained, there are physical and perceptual components; does not matter if you're talking about loudspeakers or headphones--there is a diaphragm that moves air molecules that bounce around against other molecules that move biological components that then cause electrical signals to be sent to the brain, and finally becomes your perception of sound.

If I understand the argument correctly, you're trying to differentiate loudspeaker qualities and headphone qualities, and how they relate to "soundstage." If that is so, I would have to side with Dusty--your argument is not conclusive or wholy substantial. Or, if that's not your argument at all, then I apologize.

I do want to note that one should not take it for granted that all people perceive such a "soundstage" as you quote from Stereophile--I personally believe their definition is very flawed.

I do own a binaural recording though--"From the Caves of the Iron Mountain." And truthfully, when I first listened, I sat with my eyes closed, truly immersed in the experience. That is true soundstage, and I've only felt it through headphones.

I produce/compose music, and I used to play around with a technology called 3E or something like that (sorry, cannot remember the actual name.) And through stereo speakers, a soundstage similar to that experience with binaural recordings through headphones can be experienced. But the effect is far more pronounced through headphones.

 

[Sleestack]

I respect the fact that you have a different definition of soundstage. However, I don't think either of us can conclusively say who has the "right" definition. All we can do is acknowledge that we have different definitions and understand why that would lead us to a difference in opinion. Again, I don't believe perception needs to be brought into the equation. Take a live performance, position youself at a normal listening position and put the necessary instruments to be able to read all the phsyical properties you can. Take a variety of speakers and use the same instruments to measure the same physical properties. Is there any reason one can't objectively determine if a given speaker system is better than another system in reproducing the measureable physical properties of the live performance? Obviously if you define soundstage as the interaction of physical properties and how the human mind perceives such information, those physical measurements alone will not determine anything. But, you will also never have a standard to determine whether one system can produce a better soundstage than another system because human perception can be entirely different from one person to the next.

I don't question your own personal experience. I just think we're talking about 2 different things which we both believe constitute "soundstage."


Quote:

Originally Posted by Orpheus No matter how the terms of sound and soundstage are explained, there are physical and perceptual components; does not matter if you're talking about loudspeakers or headphones--there is a diaphragm that moves air molecules that bounce around against other molecules that move biological components that then cause electrical signals to be sent to the brain, and finally becomes your perception of sound. If I understand the argument correctly, you're trying to differentiate loudspeaker qualities and headphone qualities, and how they relate to "soundstage." If that is so, I would have to side with Dusty--your argument is not conclusive or wholy substantial. Or, if that's not your argument at all, then I apologize. I do want to note that one should not take it for granted that all people perceive such a "soundstage" as you quote from Stereophile--I personally believe their definition is very flawed. I do own a binaural recording though--"From the Caves of the Iron Mountain." And truthfully, when I first listened, I sat with my eyes closed, truly immersed in the experience. That is true soundstage, and I've only felt it through headphones. I produce/compose music, and I used to play around with a technology called 3E or something like that (sorry, cannot remember the actual name.) And through stereo speakers, a soundstage similar to that experience with binaural recordings through headphones can be experienced. But the effect is far more pronounced through headphones.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleestack Again, I don't believe perception needs to be brought into the equation. Take a live performance, position youself at a normal listening position and put the necessary instruments to be able to read all the phsyical properties you can. Take a variety of speakers and use the same instruments to measure the same physical properties. Is there any reason one can't objectively determine if a given speaker system is better than another system in reproducing the measureable physical properties of the live performance?

How in the heck are you going to perform the same measurements using headphones? We're not talking about a live performance here; we're talking about soundstage reproduced through speakers/headphones, and comparing the two.

How is one to measure the soundstage produced by headphones? And were you the guy talking about lilliputians... if so, did you come to this conclusion through measurements, or through your subjective perceptions?

Methinks you introduced a classic 'straw man' (or something close to it) with your example of live music, since nobody has been talking about live music here -- we're talking about speakers vs. headphones.

IMO there's no other way to talk about soundstage when it regards headphones, except to bring in personal perception. According to your objective definition, headphones cannot reproduce *any* soundstage, since you have different sounds entering each ear and commingled by the brain. There's no objective soundstage there at all, merely two earcups outputting somewhat different sounds.

Unless you're prepared to declare that headphones cannot portray soundstage at all, you'd best agree to use Dusty_Chalk's subjective/perceptive definition where headphones are concerned.

 

[Sleestack]

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Originally Posted by fewtch How in the heck are you going to perform the same measurements using headphones? We're not talking about a live performance here; we're talking about soundstage reproduced through speakers/headphones, and comparing the two. How is one to measure the soundstage produced by headphones? And were you the guy talking about lilliputians... if so, did you come to this conclusion through measurements, or through your subjective perception?

It would be difficult b/c headphones aren't creating a significantly sized soundstage. Heapdhones are not capable of producing the soundstage that speakers can.... or at least that is what I believe, based on my understanding of soundstage. And yes, we might be comparing headphones amd speakers, however, a live performance (whether by humans or automatons) has everything to do with it b/c it is the point of reference for the entire discussion of soundstage.

Why would I need meaurements to make a reference to liliputians? It only emphasizes the underlying point. I believe heaphones are capable of producing soundstage.... however it is small and proportionally equivalent to a performance by liliputians. If you want to be a stickler... no, I've never actually met a liliputian so I may be entirely wrong.

 

[fewtch]

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Originally Posted by Sleestack It would be difficult b/c headphones aren't creating a significantly sized soundstage.

*To your ears* they aren't, right?

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Heapdhones are not capable of producing the soundstage that speakers can.... or at least that is what I believe, based on my understanding of soundstage.

Nope, it could only be based on what you've heard (i.e. your subjective perceptions). The definition of "soundstage" has nothing to do with it, it's *what you hear while listening to headphones* that makes you draw this conclusion.

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And yes, we might be comparing headphones amd speakers, however, a live performance (whether by humans or automatons) has everything to do with it b/c it is the point of reference for the entire discussion of soundstage.

Not when we're discussing headphone/speaker reproduction. In this case, the points of reference are (DOH...) headphones and speakers!

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Why would I need meaurements to make a reference to liliputians? It only emphasizes the underlying point. I believe heaphones are capable of producing soundstage.... however it is small and proportionally equivalent to a performance by liliputians. If you want to be a stickler... no, I've never actually met a liliputian so I may be entirely wrong.

Just two posts ago, you insisted that your definition of "soundstage" is objective and measurable. So am I correct then that you came to the conclusion that headphones have a "small" soundstage through subjective perception? If so, you're merely contradicting your own claims of soundstage being unrelated to perception, and you must be seriously confused.

 

[Sleestack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch IMO there's no other way to talk about soundstage when it regards headphones, except to bring in personal perception. According to your objective definition, headphones cannot reproduce *any* soundstage, since you have different sounds entering each ear and commingled by the brain. There's no objective soundstage there at all, merely two earcups outputting somewhat different sounds. Unless you're prepared to declare that headphones cannot portray soundstage at all, you'd best agree to use Dusty_Chalk's subjective/perceptive definition where headphones are concerned.

Have you actually read my posts? If you did, you would see that I repeatedly state that if heapdhones can create soundstage at all, it is on a very small scale. Furthermore, I don't see why the definition of soundstage has to be changed for heaphones. Why not just use a different term or talk about "perceived soundstage?" Again, I believe this is just a debate over semantics in which opinions diverge. Nobody has given me any reasonable explanation for why I must accept a definition of soundstage that necessarily invloves human perception. Furthermore I think I've been very clear in acknowledging that a different definition would logically lead to different conclusion.

 

[Sleestack]

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Originally Posted by fewtch *To your ears* they aren't, right? Nope, it could only be based on what you've heard (i.e. your subjective perceptions). Just two posts ago, you insisted that your definition of "soundstage" is objective and measurable. Am I to gather that you came to the conclusion that headphones have a "small" soundstage through subjective perception, then? If so, you're merely contradicting your own claims of soundstage being unrelated to perception, and you must be seriously confused.

What's the confusion? Yes, I believe soundstage is objectively measureable. Given that I believe that, I don't think that it takes a great leap of faith to assume that headphones, given their physical characteristics, would necessarily create a smaller soundstage. The fact that I have made assumptions based on subjective impressions doesn't mean that I can't believe that an independent, objective means of verification exists. It's not like I've done any objective measurements on speakers. Why would the two be mutually exclusive?

 

[fewtch]

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Originally Posted by Sleestack Have you actually read my posts? If you did, you would see that I repeatedly state that if heapdhones can create soundstage at all, it is on a very small scale.

And I'm saying you're wrong -- by your definition, headphones would be utterly unable to convey any soundstage at all. Two monaural earcups pressed against the head! There's *no* objective soundstage there, none. It is nonexistent.

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Furthermore, I don't see why the definition of soundstage has to be changed for heaphones.

It doesn't, if you just use the more reasonable definition (involving subjective perception) in the first place. Again, DOH.

 

[fewtch]

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Originally Posted by Sleestack What's the confusion? Yes, I believe soundstage is objectively measureable.

Please do measure the soundstage of a pair of headphones... I'd be really curious to know what kind of equipment you use for this

. Headphone soundstage is created in the brain, as a result of the sound of two *totally separate* earcups being mentally combined (except in the case of the AKG K1000, which isn't really a headphone IMO).

 

[Sleestack]

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Originally Posted by fewtch * Not when we're discussing headphone/speaker reproduction. In this case, the points of reference are (DOH...) headphones and speakers!

What are they both reproducing? We're not talking about speakers reproducing heaphones or vice versa. We're talking about how they both can or can't produce soundstage, which is a term associated with the reproduction of certain physical characteristics of a live performance.

 

[fewtch]

I'm not going to discuss with you any further, as it's clear you simply ignore the salient points I'm making, chop out most of the text and select some loosely related topic to comment on. It's clear you would like to run this discussion into the ground rather than answer the points I've made. I can only conclude it's because you've been out-argued. Adieu.