[Kirosia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rempert I didn't know that computers and HD650 were standard equipment for living in ghettos.

It took me I think nearly 7 yrs before getting a new computer, and I paid for half of that + all my headphone stuff by saving up, and using spare financial aid. Don't see how that makes me less. Some people save money for cars and child support, I use my money for other stuff. Would I be more credible if I smoked crack, riced my civic, and had a baby's mama?

I live in a tiny attic apt with my family, we rarely use the phone and don't spend too much on food, hence we can save for the stuff we really yearn for. My city is tame compared to other places, even though the surrounding cities do consider us ghetto trash.

Quote:

If a 6 year-old kid is listening to rap or rock or any other kind of music, and the parents aren't picking and screening the songs, that's a problem. It's poor parenting. Parents have to constantly deal with negative media influences like Elvis, Dungeons and Dragons, Led Zepelin, Bart Simpson, Clint Eastwood, Madonna, Grand Theft Auto, Nightmare on Elm Street, Johnny Cash, Britney Spears... Maybe the media has gotten worse over time; I don't know. It's silly to single out rap music, in any case. The ghettos don't exist because of gangsta rap; gangsta rap exists because of the ghettos.

Yeah, it is usually the parent's fault, but like you said, often they have a lot of negative influences to deal with. (course some don't give a s**t, and thus psychos are born)

Why do we single out rap and not others? How often do classical, jazz, or techno fans go out and cause trouble? Not much. Did beethoven or sinatra spout hatred for all to hear? I don't think they did. You guys need to see firsthand how rap affects the people around you. I've yet to see a backstreet boys fan threaten to knife me and steal my pumas, or slpa their girlfriend aorund and call her a ho in public. I'm not using it (both rap & the media) as a scapecoat, but it does play an important role, and that's what matters. So I don't agree that it's silly to single rap out. The same could be said about the violent forms of rock. There's no point in me arguing anymore, only those who had deal to with the negatives of this stuff understand, and that's a lot more people than most think. I could survey 20 guys in my area (incl myself) and I'd probably get quite a few reasons why hate-mongering music/media isn't a good thing.

You have no idea how many people from the opposite end of the tracks tell us that we're "wrong" about stuff, even though we lived through the s**t, and they see it on tv and read it in books.

(OT and not pointed at anyone in this thread, but I've met so many people who've never been through what others have yet seem fit to judge them adamantly, or give an in their eyes "perfect" solution to an important problem they've never come across. Asianphiles and idiots mainly.)

And for those who listen to that type of rap/rock but know enough not to take it seriously, power to you. Just don't pay for it or support them. har har

 

[saint.panda]

Nonregarding whether it's actually possible or not: Would prohibiting or diminishing the influence of hip hop really solve the problem or would it only scratch the surface?

Further, if looking at the global trend or drawing a balance, has hip hop in all its outing (both "good" and "bad" hip hop) had more of a positive or negative influence on the problems in ghettors and the likes? Of course, it is necessary to look at negative examples to improve on what we do but it's probably even more necessary to look at the big picture to decide whether the overall plan/system/trend is good or bad. So my questions are: Didn't hip hop also became a voice of the socially oppressed, an outlet for anger and a solution to turn violence into music instead? Didn't hip hop as a music form also became a means to actually bring the people from both sides together by creating a common interest? And does it still perform this task? Hip hop artists claim and receive respect and they tell the story of their life to those who would otherwise not have bothered to listen. Of course, these are positive examples of hip hop cultures and these are only open questions to which I don't know the answers either.

Besides, let's take a look at the bad examples of hip hop. Do they really overpower the positive examples of hip hop? I don't know but by making blank statements about hip hop we would also criticise those that do not deserve such treatment. Public Enemy, De La Soul, Nas, Mos Def, The Roots, Immortal Technique, Big l, etc. Do these artists really deserve to be put into the same drawer as 50 Cent and the likes? Perhaps differentiation might not be unreasonable.

Also, is hip hop something that is evitable? Does it help the cause to condemn something that has roots going as far as the late 60s/early 70s? Ok, hip hop has changed, perhaps for the better, perhaps not, but isn't it also good to see that people all over the world are receiving the message that hip hop artists are sending out? Also, in due of globalisation, local hip hop artists have been emerging everywhere, which again is not always for the good but certain groups of people have gained a voice that they didn't have before.

With us hearing more about problems in ghettos and other areas: Is it really because the problems have increased or is it because of our increased sensitivity and caring for problems like these? Before there was hip hop, did these problems simply not exist or did they just not have voice back then? In fact, isn't it good that more attention is paid? Returning to the opening question. By cutting down on hip hop in general, wouldn't the divide increase again? In any case, I don't think it's not a clear cut case of cause and effect.

Also, I ask myself what can be done to support the positive trends of hip hop. Certainly not by cutting down the choices. If support is given to the good sides of hip hop, the buyer is still free to choose but some choices, that are considered to be "good", might simply appear more attractive. I think responsibility should still be left to the one to choose and restrictive measures have never worked too well in a free society on top of that. It's not for me decide what everybody should listen to but I can and should support the selection that I deem positive.

 

[wakeride74]

M&M had a great knowledge of music theory and a vast understanding of harmonic melodies and dynamic vocal ranges

Oh, never mind.... for a second I thought we were talking about real a musician. The less rap I hear the better...m&m is just another "gansta" piece of crap IMO.

As far as the hip hop contribution towards violence, it may be a blanket statement that is not fair to all but I ask you this: What other genre losses artists and fans to drive-by's and other such hateful violent acts???

 

[Jahn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakeride74 What other genre losses artists and fans to drive-by's and other such hateful violent acts???

Roadhouse Rock?

 

[wakeride74]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jahn Roadhouse Rock?

I think the numbers weighting those scales are slightly tilted towards the hip-hop genre, even if you go per capita by genre (if such a thing was possible). Just look at the record numbers in places like Oakland and Richmond, CA not to mention places like NYC, Detroit, D.C., etc.
Besides ever since Patrick Swayze (Dalton) got into the "cooler" business the Roadhouse rock violence has been under control

 

[saint.panda]

Here is a very good article/discussion:http://www.rense.com/general41/hip.htm
The (mostly opposing) comments that follow the article are well worth reading, too. The article is contra hip hop with well-argued arguments.

 

[xixco]

so... as popular is he is at the channel, why has this not been mentioned on MTV??

(or maybe it's just mtv.com)


disclaimer, lest the flames start:

i'm not doubting, and have even seen links and read articles stating eminem's retiring. i'm just wondering - that's it, just wondering - why MTV hasn't said anything.

 

[Kirosia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint.panda Nonregarding whether it's actually possible or not: Would prohibiting or diminishing the influence of hip hop really solve the problem or would it only scratch the surface? Further, if looking at the global trend or drawing a balance, has hip hop in all its outing (both "good" and "bad" hip hop) had more of a positive or negative influence on the problems in ghettors and the likes? Of course, it is necessary to look at negative examples to improve on what we do but it's probably even more necessary to look at the big picture to decide whether the overall plan/system/trend is good or bad. So my questions are: Didn't hip hop also became a voice of the socially oppressed, an outlet for anger and a solution to turn violence into music instead? Didn't hip hop as a music form also became a means to actually bring the people from both sides together by creating a common interest? And does it still perform this task? Hip hop artists claim and receive respect and they tell the story of their life to those who would otherwise not have bothered to listen. Of course, these are positive examples of hip hop cultures and these are only open questions to which I don't know the answers either. Besides, let's take a look at the bad examples of hip hop. Do they really overpower the positive examples of hip hop? I don't know but by making blank statements about hip hop we would also criticise those that do not deserve such treatment. Public Enemy, De La Soul, Nas, Mos Def, The Roots, Immortal Technique, Big l, etc. Do these artists really deserve to be put into the same drawer as 50 Cent and the likes? Perhaps differentiation might not be unreasonable. Also, is hip hop something that is evitable? Does it help the cause to condemn something that has roots going as far as the late 60s/early 70s? Ok, hip hop has changed, perhaps for the better, perhaps not, but isn't it also good to see that people all over the world are receiving the message that hip hop artists are sending out? Also, in due of globalisation, local hip hop artists have been emerging everywhere, which again is not always for the good but certain groups of people have gained a voice that they didn't have before. With us hearing more about problems in ghettos and other areas: Is it really because the problems have increased or is it because of our increased sensitivity and caring for problems like these? Before there was hip hop, did these problems simply not exist or did they just not have voice back then? In fact, isn't it good that more attention is paid? Returning to the opening question. By cutting down on hip hop in general, wouldn't the divide increase again? In any case, I don't think it's not a clear cut case of cause and effect. Also, I ask myself what can be done to support the positive trends of hip hop. Certainly not by cutting down the choices. If support is given to the good sides of hip hop, the buyer is still free to choose but some choices, that are considered to be "good", might simply appear more attractive. I think responsibility should still be left to the one to choose and restrictive measures have never worked too well in a free society on top of that. It's not for me decide what everybody should listen to but I can and should support the selection that I deem positive.

Oh god, does anyone read my posts? At all? I'm not condemning hip-hop as whole, hence why I keep mentioning the bad/evil rap. Artists like PE, roots, etc are not who I'm talking about. (I do enjoy non-offensive hip hop) This is about the effects of mainstream violent/offensive rap (I don't consider it hip-hop, dunno why) on people. It does influence. Ignore the big picture for a sec, and look at us individually. No offense saint, but it's like talking to a smart computer or something, not a person with actual experience in the matter.

And yes, I know everyone has the right to listen to what they want, but at least give them better choices. I wish good music (subjective, but we can all agree britney stinks, right?

) and real credible hip-hop would become more mainstream. But it's not gonna happen anytime soon.

For you guys who wish to lavish in the gangster life but live in super-rich colorless neighborhoods, yeah, you're idiots. Real gansters and people from the streets laugh at your kind. Cause you don't know jack s**t about s**t. BTW, The majority of people who buy mainstream rap are white middle/upperclass I think (read/heard it somewhere, don't remember). Real whiteboys and minorites try their best to get away from places like this. I may not be super hardcore ghetto like your favorite rappers, but I've lived enough to know about what and what.

 

[Thaddy]

Man I just noticed this thread, this is great news! Hopefully all the other rappers in the entire world will follow suit and hang up their hats as well.

 

[saint.panda]

Kiriosa, my posts were not directed at your in particular and I did realize that you made a distinction which is why I kept differentiating between good and bad hip hop as well. And no offense taken because I really do not have much first hand experience in this matter.

However, I still believe that looking a the big picture poses the more important task because that will decide whether the general direction is good or bad. Now, whether the big picture looks good is a different question.

Most of all I was trying to raise some questions, to which I did not know the answer myself (as stated). I just couldn't believe that it'd be this simple:"Hip hop => violence" and except for some sweeping hiphop leads to violence statements, this thread did not offer much up to a certain point.

Also, the non-differentiating, condescending and arrogant attitude with which hip hop in general is confronted, even if hip hop was a potential problem source, is, in my honest opinion, disgusting. Apparently, it's because we're so much better human beings and so much more knowledgable about what real music is

In any case, the article I linked to in the post earlier somewhat changed my opinion about hip hop to the negative. There are many valid issues that are being raised. Even though the counter arguments are not too shabby either, which provide some further differentiation, the big picture and future outlook doesn't look too good given the current development as mentioned in the article.

However, my standpoint about hip hop, or Eminem in particular, being an musician and artist for that sake stays the same. He is or was just as good as or better than most of the pop and rock artists in the charts.

 

[Kirosia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint.panda Kiriosa, my posts were not directed at your in particular and I did realize that you made a distinction which is why I kept differentiating between good and bad hip hop as well. And no offense taken because I really do not have much first hand experience in this matter. However, I still believe that looking a the big picture poses the more important task because that will decide whether the general direction is good or bad. Now, whether the big picture looks good is a different question. Most of all I was trying to raise some questions, to which I did not know the answer myself (as stated). I just couldn't believe that it'd be this simple:"Hip hop => violence" and except for some sweeping hiphop leads to violence statements, this thread did not offer much up to a certain point. Also, the attitude with which hip hop is confronted, even if hip hop was a potential problem source, is in my honest opinion disgusting. In any case, the article I linked to in the post earlier somewhat changed my opinion about hip hop to the negative. There are many valid issues that are being raised. Even though the counter arguments are not too shabby either, which provide some further differentiation, the big picture and future outlook doesn't look too good given the current development as mentioned in the article. However, my standpoint about hip hop, or Eminem in particular, being an musician and artist for that sake stays the same. He is or was just as good as or better than most of the pop and rock artists in the charts.

Understood. I also apologize for going off on you, I'm a little riled at the moment.

I do hate those politicians and tv personalities who think *all* hip-hop or rock will lead to the end of mankind, yet they know nothing firsthand. It's not the root of the problem, just an (imp. imo) piece of the puzzle. And that's only pertaining to the offensive rap/rock. People need to look at both the big and littile pictures to develop a more accurate judgement of the state of things.

As for eminem, I liked the marshall mathers lp, but I despised every song that he wrote demeaning a type of people. Having to deal with trouble in your life is one thing, but attacking women and homosexuals so brutally is not my forte. At all. That kind of stuff only spreads unfounded hate.

 

[viator122]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint.panda Also, the non-differentiating, condescending and arrogant attitude with which hip hop in general is confronted, even if hip hop was a potential problem source, is, in my honest opinion, disgusting. Apparently, it's because we're so much better human beings and so much more knowledgable about what real music is

Maybe this because if you're not already a fan of the genre, your only exposure to rap and hip-hop would be radio and MTV which almost exlusively feature acts glorifying violence and objectification of women. The average person isn't going to think that there may be better material out there; why would they? IMO this is not a problem of closed-mindedness on the part of those who say rap/hip-hop are bad and glorify violence, this is a problem to be confronted by the record labels, media and existing fanbase. Good hip-hop can sell, just look at The Roots or Black Eyed Peas.

 

[saint.panda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by viator122 Maybe this because if you're not already a fan of the genre, your only exposure to rap and hip-hop would be radio and MTV which almost exlusively feature acts glorifying violence and objectification of women. The average person isn't going to think that there may be better material out there; why would they? IMO this is not a problem of closed-mindedness on the part of those who say rap/hip-hop are bad and glorify violence, this is a problem to be confronted by the record labels, media and existing fanbase. Good hip-hop can sell, just look at The Roots or Black Eyed Peas.

Valid point viator but I think I can demand from the average person to pass judgement after having taken a closer look at a certain issue or at least not be so overly and overtly opiniated about it with (often) only little background knowledge to back it up. It's true that 50 Cents and his friends should not be encouraged or rather denounced but if 50 Cents, Xzibit, etc. was the only exposure to hip hop I had, wouldn't a statement like "I despite 50 Cents, Xzibit, etc. and their influence to society" be more appropriate?

Further, if hip hop has so many followers with its own sub-culture, it can't be that black and white, it can't be that simple and there's got to be something, is what I would think to begin with.

But most of all, the discussion won't be constructive if no arguments are being presented. If I was against hip hop, there'd be no need to convince the hip hop hater of my position but blank statements against hip hop without valid arguments will certainly not convince the hip hop lover of my position. It would only polarize the opposing sides even more. If I hate hip hop, what's the point in alienating the hip hop lover even more from my position so that the status quo will be even harder to change? If I hate hip hop, my premise would be to change the current situation for the "better" from my point of view but I certainly won't change it by saying that "hip hop sucks". On the contrary. And whether my position is really "better" is to be found out using arguments instead of sweeping statements.
(Sorry, I'm really stating the obvious here

)

 

[viator122]

I see what you're saying saint.panda, but it's my belief that many people see what's on MTV and believe that 50 Cent and Eminem are representative of the genre. They don't think, "Well I don't like this; I'll have to delve deeper into the genre to see what else is available," they think to themselves, "This is rap? This is terrible." Then they change the channel. First impressions count for a lot.

People will delve deeper into a genre, but only if their first taste gets them coming back for more. Whether that is closed-minded or not is a matter of opinion.

 

[blessingx]

There's not enough upper class consumers of any race to be responsible for the majority of sales.

Real life impact (and if Art doesn't impact culture what's the point - it's more than just revealing what's there) versus intellectual arguments is an important difference, and please don't take this as a dismissal, but wasn't Rock 'n Roll the downfall of Americans youth (if 'crazy' Jazz wasn't earlier)? Granted scale and depth are aways worth noting (Rolling Stones were never a GWAR, Poison, etc.), but chick, 'fag', etc. bashing unfortunately started awhile ago. Heavy Metal has a history of sexism. Punk has a history of racism, etc. That doesn't mean anything new shouldn't be heavily criticized just because someone else got away with it earlier, but we have to be careful about saying where it came. Then fire away. I despise crap that tries to bump one group up by demeaning another underprivileged one, no matter the power structure that originally created it.

But once we have Blues does Rock become eventual? Once we have Heavy Metal is Gangsta Rap also?

Lastly, I was at a 'Family Values' tour several years ago, and I will say the hatred there as Hammerstein and Korn came on stage (but not Ice Cube) was unlike anything I've seen at a concert before. I've heard protest, etc. songs before where it was about doing something with the anger, but never seemingly anger for angers sake (at least at that venue). Besides ticket sales for the bands, I can't think of a positive there. 15 year olds begging for a fight with anyone. There's was an ugliness that I think others above are feeling in other genres that should be commented on by a hell of a lot more people IMO, but it's not Rap/R&B specific.

However on the other side, there's a ton of great art when the artist wasn't concerned with cultural implications and talking from a more personal note. Such is the Art/communication (and commercial) debate and where Eminem possibly strides the line (espeically early).