Electrostatic 'upgrade' from HD-650 system?

[ken36]

Excellent discussion. Thanks.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSloth I can't reccomend the QUAD electrostatics highly enough. I owned a pair of 988's for 3 years, and have never quite heard anything in headphones or loudspeakers since to match their unique qualities at any price.

I've been an ESL 63 fan since the early days. Haven't heard the 988 though.


Quote:

I'm seriously considering the KOSS.

I don't know the Koss the least, but just some food for thoughts: It's a closed design. I don't think closed headphones can be as accurate as open counterparts (with equal preconditions) because of the unavoidable reflections impossible to be sufficiently eliminated in such as small cabinet with limited space for damping material (no to speak of the concerned wavelengths). This especially in view of electrostatics' thin and extremely sound permeable membranes. The 4070, Stax' only closed-type earspeaker, can't hold a candle to the other family members and barely sounds like an electrostat in terms of transparency, resolution and airiness. I'm not pretending the Koss isn't worth considering, I just think it's worth considering this issue, too.

 

[TheSloth]

I don't know how I missed the Koss being closed. Are you sure about that? It doesn't 'look' closed.

I do agree with you about the technicial inferiority of closed designs in this context if so.

 

[Patu]

Just a week ago I tested Stax Classic System at my friends place. I also had my own system there and I did some comparison. I tested them with various music.

It's sad to say but Stax beated my setup almost on every aspect. When comparing bass reproducion 650s were quite even with Stax, maybe even slightly better but in almost everything else I'd choose Classic System.

Soundstage made the biggest difference between my setup and Classic System. Boy I thought 650 had a wide soundstage but Classic system had so much wider and more open soundstage. I was amazed. Classic System also sounded more natural than my setup.

I think the difference was clear. All in all I think I'll update my setup to Classic System in near future.

 

[hentai]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patu Just a week ago I tested Stax Classic System at my friends place. I also had my own system there and I did some comparison. I tested them with various music. It's sad to say but Stax beated my setup almost on every aspect. When comparing bass reproducion 650s were quite even with Stax, maybe even slightly better but in almost everything else I'd choose Classic System. Soundstage made the biggest difference between my setup and Classic System. Boy I thought 650 had a wide soundstage but Classic system had so much wider and more open soundstage. I was amazed. Classic System also sounded more natural than my setup. I think the difference was clear. All in all I think I'll update my setup to Classic System in near future.

In overall sound image and representation , the stax resembles more to hd650 or hd595? I am planning to get a high end electrostatic set up in few years time

 

[Patu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hentai In overall sound image and representation , the stax resembles more to hd650 or hd595? I am planning to get a high end electrostatic set up in few years time

This is hard one. It has been a while when I listened 595.

Well Classic System is brighter than my current setup and 595 is somewhat brighter than 650. That's one similarity when changing 650 --> 595/Classic System. 650 has darker sound than both of them. Also 650 has (hard to find the right adjective) 'more' bass than 595 or CS. That's another similarity. I'd say 595 was somewhat more similar with Classic System than 650. But I must emphasize the soundstage of Stax. It was just so amazing compared to senns. That's definitely the main reason I liked CS so much.

Now it might sound weird that I changed from 595 to 650 and when 595 looks like to be closer to Stax than 650. But it's hard to explain. I'm still very happy with my current setup.

 

[hentai]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patu This is hard one. It has been a while when I listened 595. Well Classic System is brighter than my current setup and 595 is somewhat brighter than 650. That's one similarity when changing 650 --> 595/Classic System. 650 has darker sound than both of them. Also 650 has (hard to find the right adjective) 'more' bass than 595 or CS. That's another similarity. I'd say 595 was somewhat more similar with Classic System than 650. But I must emphasize the soundstage of Stax. It was just so amazing compared to senns. That's definitely the main reason I liked CS so much. Now it might sound weird that I changed from 595 to 650 and when 595 looks like to be closer to Stax than 650. But it's hard to explain. I'm still very happy with my current setup.

I know what you mean. I like hd595 's presentation and prefer it to hd650 but wish it has wider soundstage , more resolution and less bass. Maybe stax will be my answer when i venture into the top league.

 

[GRod]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSloth Thanks for your reply. While a little off topic, (sorry, can't resist QUAD evangelising) I can't reccomend the QUAD electrostatics highly enough. I owned a pair of 988's for 3 years, and have never quite heard anything in headphones or loudspeakers since to match their unique qualities at any price. Of course they have limitations, including limited bass output (although they measure flat to 50hz which is rather impressive), and they can't blast the highest SPL (though again, they can certainly attain more than 'concert hall' levels in a normal size room (they've been significantly beefed up since the 63 model)). If you have a large room, the 989's could be fantastic, however in a small room you may find the lower bass unable to establish a proper wave form (they are flat to nearer 40hz). I miss them greatly, but that's the price of moving from a lovely house in the UK to a microscopic flat in Manhattan! Anyway, after our discussions, I'm seriously considering the KOSS. Considering it is less than half the price of the STAX combo with favourable sound reviews. I am curious about buying things and then sending them back. This seems to be a very common practice in the US. As Amazon sells the KOSS (for $569 at the mo.), I'm assuming if I bought them and wasn't particualrly impressed I would be able to send them back within the month? I'm also wondering about the connector on the headphone itself. Could it be plugged into any standard electrostatic amp, such as the STAX tube models?

Hi,

The 950's have a unique plug that can't be plugged into the Stax outlet or any other electrostatic amp as is. The Koss plug is a rectangular plug with two rows of 5 pins - 2 on top and 3 on the bottom.

However, Peter McAlister of McAlister Audio will fashion a Koss outlet for a chasis-mount installation on his EA-1 electrostatic amp. Mikeg and I are both planning to have Peter do this for us.

I've had my ESP-950's for about 12-13 years now and I love them. Recently, I almost bought a second pair of 950's in an eBay auction. However, when the price got to $450 I changed my mind. I didn't want to pay that much for a back-up pair. However, the fact that I ALMOST bought them is indicative of how much I like the 950's.

Hope this helps.

GRod

 

[GRod]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSloth I don't know how I missed the Koss being closed. Are you sure about that? It doesn't 'look' closed. I do agree with you about the technicial inferiority of closed designs in this context if so.

Hi again,

You didn't miss it. The Koss ESP-950 headphones are NOT closed. They are an open design. Ask anyone that owns them.

GRod

 

[kartik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GRod Hi again, You didn't miss it. The Koss ESP-950 headphones are NOT closed. They are an open design. Ask anyone that owns them. GRod

Absolutely right!
And from the expression on my wife's face when I'm listening to music (and she's trying to watch TV), I can assure you there are times I wish it weren't open. They leak like crazy.
They sound very nice for the price and sound good on a variety of music.

Weinerc,
You're absolutely right to compare the HD600s to the Koss despite the amplifeir. Remember, with the Koss, the amp is the weakest link.

 

[kartik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GRod Hi, Mikeg and I are both planning to have Peter do this for us. GRod

(Jealous anticipation!)

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GRod The Koss ESP-950 headphones are NOT closed. They are an open design.

Sorry to TheSloth for my misinformation! Obviously I have mixed up the models, combined with wrong info on the internet:
http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/headphone/koss-esp-950/

 

[TheSloth]

Quite a while has passed since I started this thread, and having tried different amps and sources, I'm revisiting 'the electrostatic question' once again.

I've had a chance to hear some dynamic 'phones driven from a balanced amp, and now have a little amp that can drive my 650's single ended, but with dual buffered ground (2 mono 1/8 connectors and custom cable), and find that gives half the advantage already. In any case, I find balanced drive has huge advantages to my ears in bass response and soundstage. But in any case, balanced amplification seems to be out of my price range (unless anyone knows of any options that I don't?). I've come to the decision from my listening tests that I don't want to invest more money in the 3 channel market, and balanced seems to be out of my price range, so I'm back to electrostats...

My price limit for the whole package is $1000 give or take a few $'s. I've heard the Stax basic system and was rather underwhelmed (it did vocals very nicely, but overall was a little dull - remember I'm playing classical music only, and love electrostatic speakers, so I don't think it's that I don't like the 'electrostatic sound'...). The lowest price I've seen on the KOSS ESP-950 is about $550, which seems a little high considering what people here seem to have payed in the past. Is it still reasonable at that price?

 

[edstrelow]

The 950 is a circumaural design.i.e. the ear sits inside the pads, but is not sealed. Actually it has a partial baffle on the oustide of each ear piece, which Koss evidently decided did something for the sound, but does not exclude much sound or act as a seal.

I use these with a beefed up Elenco, 3 amp, power supply to the amp and find that they get better dynamics that way than my Stax 404/SRM3 combo.
The Stax is a more refined system, with more subtlety than the Koss, but I suspect some rock/pop listeners would prefer the Koss.

On cost, the Koss is a much better deal than the Stax from the American dealer, however if you are prepared to chance the Japanese distributors, the difference is less pronounced. The main problem being the warranty issue and that the American dealer is quite aggressive about refusing to repair such gray-market items.

Koss did make sealed electrostatics, the last being, I believe , the ESP 9 which I still have. They were sold with a transformer to be run off a regular power amp and they can sound quite good with the right amp. I would like to hear these on a modern amp.