Electrostatic 'upgrade' from HD-650 system?

[TheSloth]

Greetings! This is my first post so please go easy on me! I've been reading head-fi for a while now and have finally decdied to chime in with a question.

I am currently running a pair of HD-650's out of a Headroom Supreme (with the standard module from 2003, before they upgraded them). Source is an Airport Express' optical out through the DAC section of a QUAD 99 CD-P. The loudspeaker system it's competing with is a pair of QUAD 988's and a 909 amp.

While considering either upgrading the amp with a new headroom module, or replacing it all together, I realised that the STAX SRS-4040 is within my budget if I sold the Senns and the Supreme. You can see that I like the 'electrostatic sound', and so am wondering if you think the STAX system would be significatly better, in whatever terms, than my current system. I know that there are already threads regarding electrostatics, but they didn't really answer my question for me.

For reference, I also know the sound of the HD-595's, and the Etymotic ER4-p's.

Thanks for your time!

 

[GoRedwings19]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSloth Greetings! This is my first post so please go easy on me! I've been reading head-fi for a while now and have finally decdied to chime in with a question. I am currently running a pair of HD-650's out of a Headroom Supreme (with the standard module from 2003, before they upgraded them). Source is an Airport Express' optical out through the DAC section of a QUAD 99 CD-P. The loudspeaker system it's competing with is a pair of QUAD 988's and a 909 amp. While considering either upgrading the amp with a new headroom module, or replacing it all together, I realised that the STAX SRS-4040 is within my budget if I sold the Senns and the Supreme. You can see that I like the 'electrostatic sound', and so am wondering if you think the STAX system would be significatly better, in whatever terms, than my current system. I know that there are already threads regarding electrostatics, but they didn't really answer my question for me. For reference, I also know the sound of the HD-595's, and the Etymotic ER4-p's. Thanks for your time!

how do you find the sound of the 650's? What is it you like about them and dislike about them? If you can just give us an idea then it will be easier to help you.

 

[Iron_Dreamer]

To me the Omega II seems like the electrostatic counterpart to the HD650. Both have a somewhat dark sound, with a soft or "edge-less" treble as I like to call it, as well as a large soundstage. They present the music similarly, but the Omega II has a more effortless soundstage that envelops you in the performance, as well as a more detailed sound, so it does seem like a natural upgrade for the HD650 lover, as even the bass can be quite powerful with the Omega II (and KGSS). The SR404 is much brighter than the OmegaII, so I am not sure it is what the HD650 lover would be seeking in their dynamic cans, though they are a comparative bargain and a great listen. I think they might just have a bit more edge than HD650 folks care to stomach.

 

[TheSloth]

Thanks for your replies. I'm not that sure that I'm a '650 lover'. I also sometimes enjoy the 'alive' quality of the HD-595, though not as much as the overall 650 impression. Thanks for the Omega II suggestion, though that is simply too dear for me. I saw on some other threads that the HE60/HEV70 combo still appears from time to time. I've heard that the HEV70 is the weak point in that setup, but there are other amps available, right?

I listen basically to classical music (lossless compression).What I love about electrostatics (speakers) is their intimate detail, without sacrificing the overall feeling of the music. That being said, in a headphone, the advantages that electrostatics bring from a technical standpoint would seem to be reduced, as there is no crossover, 1 driver, and the dynamic diaphram is relatively light. Slamming bass is of little interest to me, though for classical music, bass response is extremely important for the correct articulation of the lower orchestral instruments, as well as the overall soundstage and weight of a performance. Basically, I'm looking for something neutral, which seems usually to be what I enjoy most.

 

[TheSloth]

Also wanted to note that I'm describing the SRS-4040 system, which includes the SRM-006t tube amplifier. Does that make any difference to comments about the 404's lack of warmth?

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSloth What I love about electrostatics (speakers) is their intimate detail, without sacrificing the overall feeling of the music. That being said, in a headphone, the advantages that electrostatics bring from a technical standpoint would seem to be reduced, as there is no crossover, 1 driver, and the dynamic diaphragm is relatively light.

To the first point: intimacy -- as an isolated criterion -- is one of dynamic headphones' strength compared to most electrostats, while detail itself is a typical electrostatic strength (to my ears). The reasoning: The intimacy with electrostatic speakers is primarily the result of the relatively direct radiation of the sound (from both the dipole characteristic as well as the extended radiating surface), without as much reflected sound and standing waves (in the bass) as from typical dynamic speakers. In the headphone world, radiation has no equal meaning. In turn the electrode grids through which the sound waves have to pass through and which represent a reflective surface take some of the intimacy and directness of the sound away (you can simulate this phenomenon by placing a metal grid in front of your speakers, preferably the tweeters), replacing it with some kind of mild metallic or glassy sharpness.

To the second point: Yes, the crossover issue is none with headphones. On the other hand, the advantage of the lower moving mass as well as the driving force distributed over the whole membrane surface still speak for the electrostatic principle.


Quote:

Slamming bass is of little interest to me, though for classical music, bass response is extremely important for the correct articulation of the lower orchestral instruments, as well as the overall soundstage and weight of a performance. Basically, I'm looking for something neutral, which seems usually to be what I enjoy most.

From my perspective, the HD 650 is hard to beat when it comes to the absence of gross colorations. But not everyone considers its sonic presentation with its unspectacular or even slightly rolled-off treble as neutral. My own electrostatics (based on Stax Lambda and Signature Pro) seem to provide about the same degree of realism as the HD 650 overall. As to the bass: IMO, it's one of electrostatics greatest strenghts if we're talking of articulation, texture and extension and by all means will do acoustic instruments justice. It just may not show the same impact, substance and body as a good dynamic bass (although perception of this issue varies). But this issue isn't reserved to low frequencies; I for one am more sensitive to the midrange, where I miss some of the substance and attack I'm used to from dynamic headphones. (I think it's a consequence of both the thin and sound permeable membrane [= literal lack of substance] as well as the absence of resonances.)

However, as a classical lover you're certainly a candidate for electrostatics. To be sure, you have to audition them yourself. The most plausible candidate is probably the SR-404. While I found it a bit more colored than the HD 650 and prone to the above-mentioned electrostatic weaknesses, it certainly has its advantages, too (detail, resolution, airiness...). And BTW, it sounds rather warm to me.

 

[PATB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron_Dreamer To me the Omega II seems like the electrostatic counterpart to the HD650. Both have a somewhat dark sound, with a soft or "edge-less" treble as I like to call it, as well as a large soundstage. They present the music similarly, but the Omega II has a more effortless soundstage that envelops you in the performance, as well as a more detailed sound, so it does seem like a natural upgrade for the HD650 lover, as even the bass can be quite powerful with the Omega II (and KGSS).

I listen to the HD650 and Omega II on a regular basis and I love them both. While I don't share Iron_Dreamer's opinions on the Sony cans (

) , I have to agree to the above-quoted paragraph 100%. If you love the HD650s, save your money for the Omega IIs. However, if you like the Grado or Sony sound signature, the Omega IIs are a waste of money -- you will hate it.

 

[TheSloth]

Unfortunately, the Omega II's are simply too expensive. I never realised how reasonable the SRS-4040 system was from audiocubes, which is what prompted me to start this thread.

It sounds to me like I'm going to be doing myself a better service, in terms of upgrade cost vs. result, by improving the now 2 generations old electronics module of the supreme, and maybe trying to find a Base Station One.

 

[PATB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSloth Unfortunately, the Omega II's are simply too expensive. I never realised how reasonable the SRS-4040 system was from audiocubes, which is what prompted me to start this thread. It sounds to me like I'm going to be doing myself a better service, in terms of upgrade cost vs. result, by improving the now 2 generations old electronics module of the supreme, and maybe trying to find a Base Station One.

Nothing wrong with the HD650s. I still listen to them, in fact just two nights ago, even when the Omega IIs are just an arm's length away.

BTW, do NOT audition the Omega IIs with classical music. The Omega IIs are unreal (can't describe it; I am not an audiophile and don't have the requisite audiophile vocabulary) when it comes to classical music, so you may end lusting for them.

 

[gsferrari]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PATB The Omega IIs are unreal (can't describe it; I am not an audiophile and don't have the requisite audiophile vocabulary) when it comes to classical music, so you may end lusting for them.

I am constantly having to revise the "Electrostatic Orgasm" thread because the Omega-IIs are now sounding fantastic out of the staid old 007T!!!

Sure the HE-60s are different...and nice...but I cannot choose between the HE-60 and the Omega-II...no sir!!

 

[catscratch]

I can only speak from the experience of having owned the SR-404/SRM-313 combo, not the 4040 system. I think the SR-404 is, for it's price, unparalleled in it's rendition of instrument tone and texture. It is capable of pulling off the illusion that you're listening to an actual instrument as opposed to a system reproducing that instrument. I also don't agree with Jazz regarding coloration - I think the HD650 is substantially more colored than the SR-404, even if neither headphone is perfect in that regard.

However, in my system, the SR-404 is rather dry in the midrange and midbass. Instruments sound real, but they don't have the lushness or enveloping presense that you long for in a quality system. I suppose that is partially the SRM-313's failing, but in any case, I believe a tube amp with a warm, tubey sound is definitely the right compliment to the SR-404. Not having heard the SRM-006t I can't comment on it's suitability, but the SRM-313 is definitely not it.

If you value texture, detail, and tone, then the SRS-4040 system will probably be better than your HD650 system. If you value impact, lushness, and coherence then the HD650 will probably pull ahead.

If the HE60 is anything like the HE90, which I consider to be the best, period - then it certainly doesn't have the same issues as the SR-404, and will be a great choice and a definite upgrade. However, good luck finding one. I'm not sure it will be significantly cheaper than the SR-007 either, especially if you want to replace the HEV70 amp, which is supposed to be subpar.

Audition the 4040 if you can. Only your ears can tell you if this is what you want.

 

[Iron_Dreamer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PATB BTW, do NOT audition the Omega IIs with classical music. The Omega IIs are unreal (can't describe it; I am not an audiophile and don't have the requisite audiophile vocabulary) when it comes to classical music, so you may end lusting for them.

I agree with you on that one bigtime, I think the OII/KGSS is the best classical sound I've heard, with a great life-likeness to the strings especially, the only cans I've heard that come close are the hybrid HP3000, which had a similar life-likeness but lacked the detail and intoxicating soundstage of the electrostats.

 

[TheSloth]

Anyone know anything about KOSS ESP-950. They seem to have favourable reviews vs. STAX on audioreview.com. I've seen there are some older threads about these, however they don't make any comparison between this model and any STAX or other electrostatic models. Also, the dynamic headphones mentioned are no longer 'top of the line'.

 

[weinerc]

I just bought a pair of Koss ESP-950 from an Amazon.com merchant about three months ago and have been very happy with them. I paid about $450 including priority shipping. Aside from some issue regarding quality, I've been completely satisfied.

Basically, I'm completely hooked on the electrostatic sound! I also listen to classic music and jazz and find your description of electrostatic characteristics very accurate. I'm now seriously thinking about buying a pair of Quad electrostatic speakers when I return to the United States. Any advice?

As for your question, I often compare the Koss to a pair of Sennheiser HD600 that I bought about a year ago. It's probably not the fairest comparison because the HD600 are not being used with a headphone amplifier. I bought a tube amplifier from audioadvisor.com and ended up returning it! I felt the headphone section of my Yamaha RX-V1 receiver was pretty strong and was doing a fine job driving the headphones themselves. I was unable to use the receiver's Silent Cinema function going through an external amplifier. If you haven't heard this feature, it's pretty cool, especially for late night video watching and concert DVDs.

I've also played around with driving both headphones at the same time and going back and forth between them. Several of my friends have commented that the Koss' are far superior. One friend stated, "it's like one is Godiva and the other is Hershey." No kidding. I'm not of a chocolate fan, but I can tell you that the Koss' are pretty sweet.

My next purchase for headphones are definitely going to be Stax. I'm trying (still trying) to talk my wife into a trip to Japan in the Spring and was thinking about buying a pair of SR-404. Unfortunately, the Omega are a bit out of my price range. For an amplifier I was thinking of using a McAlister EA-1 or an electrostatic amplifier made by Woo Audio. I would love to buy a used KGSS but they rarely come up for sale.

Hope this helps,

Chuck

 

[TheSloth]

Thanks for your reply.

While a little off topic, (sorry, can't resist QUAD evangelising) I can't reccomend the QUAD electrostatics highly enough. I owned a pair of 988's for 3 years, and have never quite heard anything in headphones or loudspeakers since to match their unique qualities at any price. Of course they have limitations, including limited bass output (although they measure flat to 50hz which is rather impressive), and they can't blast the highest SPL (though again, they can certainly attain more than 'concert hall' levels in a normal size room (they've been significantly beefed up since the 63 model)). If you have a large room, the 989's could be fantastic, however in a small room you may find the lower bass unable to establish a proper wave form (they are flat to nearer 40hz). I miss them greatly, but that's the price of moving from a lovely house in the UK to a microscopic flat in Manhattan!

Anyway, after our discussions, I'm seriously considering the KOSS. Considering it is less than half the price of the STAX combo with favourable sound reviews. I am curious about buying things and then sending them back. This seems to be a very common practice in the US. As Amazon sells the KOSS (for $569 at the mo.), I'm assuming if I bought them and wasn't particualrly impressed I would be able to send them back within the month? I'm also wondering about the connector on the headphone itself. Could it be plugged into any standard electrostatic amp, such as the STAX tube models?