[matt8268]

I have a Stax 3030 rig that I use for home listening, but I’m starting to get dissatisfied with its lack of aliveness/impact. I LOVE the detail and soundstage, and ideally would like to keep these qualities while adding more musicality. I also have a pair of Etymotic ER4P/S that I use with my iPod, and would like to use them amped also, but alas the Stax amp is proprietary to electrostatics.

I’m considering either:
1. Buying a cheap $200 or below amp to let me enjoy my Ety’s at home when I want some more impact. Continue using Stax for classical, etc.
2. Selling the Stax and getting a SinglePower PPX or MPX (or equivalent) and using that with my Ety’s. Having a great tube amp that feeds ¼” plug will let me experiment with other phones as well.

What would your advice be? Will I regret getting rid of the Stax, or will a good tube amp make me forget all about it? Finally, would adding a Senn HD650 with replacement cable to a Singlepower amp yield completely different results from my experience with the HD600 (see below), or is the fogginess I experienced part of the Senn “house sound”.

Thanks guys!


For reference, I’m including systems I’ve owned and my thoughts:

Etymotic ER4S + Perreaux SXH1 + Music Hall CD25 - Really enjoyed this setup. Powerful, warm, amazingly detailed. Drawback was lack of soundstage.

Senn HD600 (stock cable) + Perreaux SXH1 + Music Hall CD25 - Very relaxing. Mid-bass hump was very noticeable. Didn’t like the detail…sounded foggy to me, unacceptably so compared to the Ety’s.

Stax 3030 system (SRM313 + SR303) + Music Hall CD25 - Incredible soundstage and detail. Delicious for classical and solo vocals. I’m starting to feel, however, that overall they are too clinical. There’s a lack of impact, musicality, or aliveness. Never thought I’d be critiquing my Stax setup like this, but I’m finding I want to experience my music, not just hear it really clearly.

[Portable] Etymotic ER4P + iPod 3G & 5G (video) playing 128k AAC files - I simply love this combo…Amazingly good sound to me for a small, easy, portable rig.

 

[sgrossklass]

If you didn't like the HD600 already, the '650 is yet more laid-back. I'd rather place my bets on a K701 or DT880.

 

[cosmopragma]

I own/have owned all the cans you've mentioned.
Forget the Senns.It's possible to fix the "fogginess" (it's usually called "veiled" presentation here), but it's very expensive.Aftermarket cable, Benchmark DAC, balanced amp, this adds up to $$$$.
I guess you can't or don't want to afford multiple rigs.In this case your best bet is to sell the Stax setup and get a Sony MDR-SA 5000 and a nice amp instead.
The Sony is king in the detail department, even better than the Staxes, and provides the impact/punch you are looking for.You'll loose a bit headstage and imaging capabilities, but it's really only a bit.

 

[elmoe]

I second the SA5k, its whats closest to electrostatics in dynamic headphones.

 

[ZOKROX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmopragma I own/have owned all the cans you've mentioned. Forget the Senns.It's possible to fix the "fogginess" (it's usually called "veiled" presentation here), but it's very expensive.Aftermarket cable, Benchmark DAC, balanced amp, this adds up to $$$$. I guess you can't or don't want to afford multiple rigs.In this case your best bet is to sell the Stax setup and get a Sony MDR-SA 5000 and a nice amp instead. The Sony is king in the detail department, even better than the Staxes, and provides the impact/punch you are looking for.You'll loose a bit headstage and imaging capabilities, but it's really only a bit.

To get the most out of the Sony SA5000 apparently you need very
specific electronics. An SA5000 owner in this thread claims he has
such a set-up :

http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=148810

 

[JaZZ]

In my view the SA5000 represents mainly the negative aspects of electrostatics: overemphasized detail, lack of substance, organicalness and color -- not to be mixed up with coloration. In turn it is highly colored itself, in fact in a cold, treble-emphasized, hollow and artificial direction, worse than any electrostatic headphone I've heard. The litmus test with pink noise revealed it mercilessly: the noise sounds artificial and inhomogeneous, in contrast e.g. to the HD 650 or my two electrostats, which all make something reminding of a waterfall out of it. -- Of course I'm aware that it may behave differently on different people's ears, nevertheless I highly recommend to do the pink-noise test with it and if possible some other, (more/decently) coherent sounding headphones.

I'm torn between electrostats and dynamic headphones myself. They just have different virtues that obviously can't be combined. I own the HD 600 myself, and I can see what you mean by the «foggy» attribute -- in comparison to the 3030 system. But I also think your Perreaux amp, which is said to be very smooth or even rolled off, may have contributed to this impression. In turn the HD 650 can sound very clear and lively in a synergetic system (such as in mine) and with a transparent cable, although you'd still need some adaptation to the smoother (and «slower») presentation after listening to electrostats.

I'm still waiting for my pair of AKG K 701. From what I've read it may be an even better bridge builder to dynamic headphones due to its brighter, more detailed (not necessarily higher resolving) characteristic; the same applies to the DT 880.

 

[ZOKROX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ In my view the SA5000 represents mainly the negative aspects of electrostatics: overemphasized detail, lack of substance and color -- not to be mixed up with coloration. In turn it is highly colored itself, in fact in a cold, treble-emphasized, hollow and artificial direction, worse than any electrostatic headphone I've heard. The litmus test with pink noise revealed it mercilessly: the noise sounds highly colored, in contrast e.g. to the HD 650 or my two electrostats, which all make something reminding of a waterfall out of it. -- Of course I'm aware that it may behave differently on different people's ears, nevertheless I highly recommend to do the pink-noise test with it and if possible some other, (more/decently) coherent sounding headphones. I'm torn between electrostats and dynamic headphones myself. They just have different virtues that obviously can't be combined. I own the HD 600 myself, and I can see what you mean by the «foggy» attribute -- in comparison to the 3030 system. But I also think your Perraux amp, which is said to be very smooth or even rolled off, may have contributed to this impression. In turn the HD 650 can sound very clear and lively in a synergetic system (such as in mine) and with a transparent cable, although you'd still need some adaptation to the smoother (and «slower») presentation after listening to electrostats. I'm still waiting for my pair of AKG K 701. From what I've read it may be an even better bridge builder to dynamic headphones due to its brighter, more detailed (not necessarily higher resolving) characteristic; the same applies to the DT 880.

The threads on the AKG K340 (hybrid electrostatic/ dynamic ) claim
that it was a sweet smooth sounding successful combination.

Some people on headfi buy refurbished K340's and modify them for better or worse. 'Cause they supposedly combine the best of the electrostatic and dynamic worlds.

http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showt...highlight=K340

http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showt...highlight=K340

http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showt...highlight=K340

http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showt...highlight=K340

http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showt...highlight=K340

http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showt...highlight=K340

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZOKROX Some people on headfi buy refurbished K340's. 'Cause they combine the best of the electrostatic and dynamic worlds.

Thanks for the tip! I'm aware that in the speaker world this combination works quite well -- although not really in the form of «the best of both worlds» IMO. With speakers you're virtually doomed to divide the frequency range into at least two partitions, but the same doesn't apply to headphones. There two interacting drivers and the necessary crossover network may very well destroy any possible theoretical advantage of the concept. So I'm a bit skeptical, but at the same time I'm sure that it has its merits as well.

 

[mikeg]

Consider a Koss ESP/950 electrostatic headphone. But, you'll need to substitute a better power supply for the included wall wart. Operating with batteries will also product a better sound than use of the wall wart.

 

[aerius]

You mention musicality, and wanting aliveness and impact. In which case I agree with JaZZ that the SA5000 is not the best option, it has great impact and it's really fast & pretty detailed, but IMO it's actually a step backwards from what you currently have since it's even less fun and has way too much treble emphasis. If you're a cymbal fan and like hearing every cymbal hit decay for at least 10 seconds, it's great, if not, you'll probably hate it. Personally I find it to be even more sterile sounding than the Stax SR-404 SRM-313 combo.

I'm also not a big fan of Senns even though I own a couple, I find them to be just too mellow & slow. The 650 (a friend owns one, I've listened to it a lot) when everything is right somewhere in between the 600 and your Stax setup in sound. It's a bit more lively but doesn't have the speed of the Stax, and this in-between-ness (is that a word?) really bugs me. It's analogous to the compromise that leaves everyone unhappy. But my big problem with it is that to me it makes music soulless, I don't get chills or nearly cry when listening to a good Albert King or Jimi Hendrix blues track like I do with my Grado 225. Music just doesn't connect.

To be honest it's going to be really hard to find what you're looking for. The AKG K340 should do it IF you find the right one and get the right mods done to it. So far I've heard 3 K340's and they all sounded different. Some have more treble, others more base, and some more detail than others. All have a soundstage which is pretty close to the Stax, and detail level ranges from being a bit less than the Stax to a bit more. Fun & aliveness is not as good as a Grado, but I find it to be better than Senns or Stax. Because of the variability, I can't fully recommend it, even though I own one and my pair does seem to fit your needs, other pairs might not.

 

[matt8268]

Thanks for the replies so far. I think I've heard enough to rule out the 650's for me. I know a lot of people love them, but I have heard and dismissed the 600's, so I should probably stay away. Looks like I'm a detail freak (come on, I have Ety's

and Stax

).

I came across a little hard on the Stax in my first post. I just got done listening to a very well recorded Bluegrass album (Chris Thile's "Not All Who Wander Are Lost"), and the sound was awesome. I guess it's that when something is not a very good recording, or when I feel like some more impact, I crave a dynamic phone. I'm starting to lean toward owning both types of phone, so now it's a question of how much of an amp to buy for my Ety's (and potentially later some Grado's, and some Beyer's, and some...)

Matt.

 

[ServinginEcuador]

After experimenting quite a bit with the Stax SR404 and Omega II I have found one major contributor to the lack of bass/impact: the amount of seal which you get on the ear pads. If you just slightly lift each ear pad off your face, and notice a great increase in bass/impact your seal is too good. If it does little or nothing it's something else. I've been trying to figure out a way to allow the air pressure to vent out of the ear pads of my Stax as the bass/impact on mine are substantial when the seal is broken.

 

[cosmopragma]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ In my view the SA5000 represents mainly the negative aspects of electrostatics: overemphasized detail, lack of substance, organicalness and color -- not to be mixed up with coloration. In turn it is highly colored itself, in fact in a cold, treble-emphasized, hollow and artificial direction, worse than any electrostatic headphone I've heard. The litmus test with pink noise revealed it mercilessly: the noise sounds artificial and inhomogeneous, in contrast e.g. to the HD 650 or my two electrostats, which all make something reminding of a waterfall out of it. -- Of course I'm aware that it may behave differently on different people's ears, nevertheless I highly recommend to do the pink-noise test with it and if possible some other, (more/decently) coherent sounding headphones.

In the end it's a question of taste, preferences ,your personal HRTFs and the treble sensitivity of your hearing.
I did recommend the SA5Ks since he seems to really like the Etys.To me the stock SA5Ks are similar sounding to the Etys as far as tonal balance is concerned, but far better in any other regard.
The Sonys have more and better bass, nice headstage/imaging, even more detail and unlike the Etys extend beyond 16 KHz, just two leagues above the Etys.
Admittedly they are a bit treble emphasized, but not harsh.
I often lower the treble and the 800 - 1200 Hz region a bit by utilizing an Equalizer to make it perfect, but I tend to equalize any cans and I can easily live with the stock response.
I did perform a pink noise test, and to my ears they are not as bad as to your's.I prefer the sine sweep method anyway, and to me the Senns are more weird.
The perceived detail is basically no fake detail, even if I lower the treble they are more detailed than the Senns.Plus they are fast like electrostats, you'd have to go balanced to lift the lame Senns to be nearly close.
You may not like the tonal balance, but technically the Sonys are superior.
And, very important for me, the Sonys are the most enjoyable cans at low volume.This helps to prevent the deterioration of my hearing.
Just boost the bass a bit and you have a near perfect psychoacoustical loudness effect.

 

[JaZZ]

Hallo Uwe...

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmopragma In the end it's a question of taste, preferences, your personal HRTFs and the treble sensitivity of your hearing.

Absolutely! Nothing to say against that.


Quote:

I did recommend the SA5Ks since he seems to really like the Etys. To me the stock SA5Ks are similar sounding to the Etys as far as tonal balance is concerned, but far better in any other regard.

Is there the individual HRTF in play? Because I also like the ER-4P/X, and to me it sounds nothing like the SA5000.


Quote:

The Sonys have more and better bass, nice headstage/imaging, even more detail and unlike the Etys extend beyond 16 kHz, just two leagues above the Etys.

The Ety bass is almost unsurpassable to my ears, but I agree that the Sony has a nice, textured bass. It's just that it doesn't find the proper connection to the midrange, which on its part has troubles attaching the treble in an unobtrusive way. It sounds almost like a not too carefully tuned 3-way system to me. I prefer the Etys' nonexistent headstage to the limited one in the SA5000 (not that it's really bad, though), since it allows me to create it myself, mentally, and that's perfect for me. No question about HF extension -- the SA5000 has the edge there.

I think Sony indeed has quite some know-how in terms of membrane technology, of which Qualia 010 and SA5000 (just as the R10) benefit in the form of really fast transient response and high resolution. But that's not everything needed for a good headphone. So from my perspective the «technical superiority» may not entirely be an adequate attribute. With all the mentioned top headphones Sony seems to have screwed up the implementation of their technical excellence in one way or the other, but with all of them in the form of a hollowness or artificial reverberativeness. I have managed to minimize the latter in the SA5000 by just lining some bare, reflective surfaces inside the earpieces with absorbing velvet (Vertigo-1 succeeded with a similar approach), but to me it shows that the Japanese sonic ideal may comprehend a certain bias to a spectacular touch, which often results in a sort of sublime artificiality, in the case of Sony's latest headphone generation not least meant to demonstrate their SACD capability.

I for one am a clear advocate of the «European» sonic ideal: If I have to choose between different sorts of colorations, I choose the one with the least spectacular and least obvious occurrence, even at the expense of lesser excellence with some of the «technical» criteria. In order to make the music, or the composition, resp., the main actor, not the conductor with its spectacular show or the technical excellence of the soloist, to use a matching analogy. That's why I've ended up (so far) with the HD 650 and its unspectacular presentation and (notabene!) nevertheless excellent resolution for a dynamic headphone. (Note: detail is there, just not thrown in your face!) Astonishing enough how huge a following Sennheiser's understatement policy finds.

And it's there where I have issues with electrostats: As neutral and effortless as they appear, they also have a strange spectacularity in the treble performance which bothers me in the long run. It's not something like sibilance or a fatiguing component -- quite the opposite: I love mine for their ear-friendliness and unfatiguingness. It's just that there's a certain glare, an artificially enhanced airiness (sometimes with a metallic touch), a kind of indirectness preventing the music from going straight to the soul. Listening to electrostatics is virtually a mere intellectual enjoyment (exaggerated). I believe to know the cause for this issue: it's the fact that the sound waves have to pass the electrode grids with their compressive and reflective properties instead of being sent directly to the listener's ears, like with (most) dynamic headphones.


Quote:

I did perform a pink noise test, and to my ears they are not as bad as to yours.

That doesn't sound really convinced, does it? I mean, to me the pink noise reproduced through the HD 650 effectively could be mixed up with a waterfall (apart from the spatial presentation), whereas through the SA5000 it just sounded like an artificial noise with lots of resonances and dips. However, this underlines the relevance of the individual HRTF.
.

 

[Jahn]

I think a great combo to go with your stax would be an HP2. I dig on my STAX too, but when it's time to slam I head to the Grado - but the HP2 still has that level of detail you demand, but with more warmth to boot without peaking in the mids/midbass.