[SirAuron701]

Hello everyone, been reading parts of this forum for some time now and having saved up a tidy sum I wanted some help with deciding on a new set of headphones and to learn a bit on amplifiers.

I was initially looking into headphones in the up to 200 euros range and the main contenders I have found are the AKG 701 and the Beyerdynamic DT-990. Other models I have come across are either not available in Greece or far too expensive here in Greece (e.g.HiFiman, Grados etc.)

I am mainly listening to jazz (free, avant-garde), various instrumental (20th century classical, downtown music, soundtracks etc.) and some experimental/electronic music (IDM, experimental rock, etc.). However, I do have a somewhat wider palate and do dive into other styles from time to time so I would like a set with no distinct drawbacks. As you can imagine crispy clean tremble and a wide soundstage are essential and I do like to listen to the music as the engineer intented it (i.e. not massively altered by a boosted bass for example) so I feel that what I have read on the AKG 701/2 make them a good choice for me. However, I would love to listen to what people can suggest for me, even if it is outside of my price range. I would rather wait a bit and get something better, so long as we are not hitting massive diminishing returns in regards to value for money.

The real reason I am here is that by reading through the forums, especially a very illuminating post on impedance and sensitivity, it seems that an amplifier is all buy essential for most headphones in this price range (and above) which means the cost will skyrocket from about 150 euros to 300 for a solid amp. Therefore, I have the following questions

I) Are there headphones on the sub 400 euros range that can work to their full capacity without an amp? I am of course referring to audiophile cans that would produce a sound equivalent to their pricing. If that is not possible would perhaps a sound card paired with low impedance/high sensitivity set do the trick?
II) My motherboard is the following. Can it perhaps provide enough power for such headphones? Where can I find this information?
https://www.asrock.com/mb/amd/fatal1ty b450 gaming k4/index.asp
III) If an amp is essential how limiting is the choice of an amp in case you decide to try a different pair of headphones? I can see there are lengthy discussions on what amps go with each pair of headphones but I am not sure how adversely mismatching the amp and the headphones can affect the sound quality.
IV) I have read that an independent sound card is generally not needed unless you own top notch equipment. Is that true or should I also be looking for a standalone sound hard to come with the headphones? I will be using them almost exclusively with my computer.

I assume much of this has been answered in other parts of the forum but I was unable to locate those answers. I will be happy to read through if you could point me to the right direction.

P.S. Looking for open headphones as leaking is not an issue for me.

 

[Cruelhand Luke]

I would look into the Philips Fidelio X3, they might be affordable in your country.
They have a wide soundstage, are relatively neutral, detailed, excellent bass etc. They don't require a lot of power, so if you decide to amp them you'll have a lot of affordable options.
I can't speak highly enough about them, they are really fantastic.

 

[pbui44]

Look here for a Philips X3 and if your motherboard does not power it well enough, an amp and 2.5mm-to-4-pin-XLR adapter (sorry that Drop is US, but it is the cheapest that is guaranteed to work with X3 and Loxjie P20) for it:

https://www.amazon.it/Philips-X2HR-...EX5SD9&psc=1&refRID=A0X9BCJZKHJA30EX5SD9&th=1

https://www.amazon.it/LOXJIE-P20-Ba...HJA30EX5SD9&psc=1&refRID=A0X9BCJZKHJA30EX5SD9

https://drop.com/buy/drop-4-pin-xlr-to-trrs-adapter

 

[pbui44]

Also, a link on your motherboard’s on-board sound chip, 3m long 3.5mm-to-L/R-RCA cable, and reusable cable ties:

https://www.reddit.com/r/sffpc/comments/f5qi5i/what_exactly_is_creative_sound_blaster_cinema_5/

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1485004/Clevo-Nb55tk1.html?page=175#manual

https://www.amazon.it/LINKINPERK-Au...FhUl4VwMzbE4fw/w==&smid=A3M5K1HE9PQRI0&sr=8-1

https://www.amazon.it/Fascette-Riut...words=velcro+cable+ties&qid=1617326078&sr=8-8

 

[SirAuron701]

Good Morning and thank you for your replies.

I had looked into the Fidelios but I think they fall into the too expensive/not available category I mentioned. The Fidelio X3 are not currently available in my country and on nearby Amazon listings they come at over 250 euros at best, not including international shipping. The Fidelio X2HR are available locally but start at 230 euros.

For reference here's the cost for the headphones I had mentioned

AKG 701/2 130-150 euros
Beyerdynamic DT-990 125 euros // 32 Ohms version at 170

Would you argue that the Fidelios warranty the almost double price?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I) Are there headphones on the sub 400 euros range that can work to their full capacity without an amp?

1. Philips X2HR

2. Philips SHP9500

3. Used Grado RS2

Note: these assume whatever you're plugging them in has low output impedance and a reasonably decent power output without noise and distortion. Meaning you can still improve them with an amp depending on how bad whatever they'll initially be plugged into is; look at it another way, just because they don't need a lot of power is not a guarantee they'd sound good.

...If that is not possible would perhaps a sound card paired with low impedance/high sensitivity set do the trick?

As long as it's one of the good sound cards ie not the old ones with high output impedance.

That said...if you don't need them for surround processing more so with more games having a native headphone audio mode, why get a soundcard? I mean $200 for a good soundcard and then you just have your games on headphone mode so you're not using the surround to 2ch headphone processor anyway, you might as well get a $300 DAC+HPamp set that would still work with those games and doesn't exclude using mITX.

Unless you mean what's on the board but I wouldn't choose a motherboard based on the sound. Not that I would never use it (I do right now), but when picking a motherboard, it's better to pick one based on actual reviews about how well controlled the VRM temps are or if it has the features you need vs buying one based on what it claims it sounds like (which is no guarantee; the board can use the same opamp as the eight opamps in my Meier amp and can still sound different, not to mention not having a lot of power).

II) My motherboard is the following. Can it perhaps provide enough power for such headphones? Where can I find this information?
https://www.asrock.com/mb/amd/fatal1ty b450 gaming k4/index.asp

The specs aren't published. All this states is it has a Creative DSP.

And up until around Skylake what manufacturers will state what op-amp was used, but then that doesn't really mean anything. You can have a Gigabyte board that has the LM6171 opamp, doesn't mean it'll be just as good as a Meier Cantate.2 with six or eight of the same opamps, let alone sound the same when you have the later version that has an OPA2134.

In short it's kind of like if Chevy said the Camaro and Corvette and Silverado have the same Chevy small block, but that doesn't tell you anything about the cam profile, the timings, the actual dimensions in the cylinders, the compression ratio, the fuel injectors, etc etc that determine how much power it can crank out and what the torque curve is like.

As a very, very, very rough guesstimate, assume it's OK for the ones I listed above, but given the AKG's tendency to have a problem with too low or even too high damping factor, I wouldn't be on it for that one.

III) If an amp is essential how limiting is the choice of an amp in case you decide to try a different pair of headphones? I can see there are lengthy discussions on what amps go with each pair of headphones but I am not sure how adversely mismatching the amp and the headphones can affect the sound quality.

Unless you get an OTL amp that delivers power into 300ohms and drops output above and below that, and it has a long way to dive down to 32ohms, then get a headphone that is at 32ohms or thereabouts but has very low sensitivity (while even if it did have good sensitivity you'd still have a damping factor problem), it wouldn't really be all that severe.

Unless of course you go ridiculously cheap on the amp now and while it can kind of somewhat drive a 93dB/1mW, 62ohm headphone fine it may have too low power into 150ohm loads (much less 300ohms), which may limit your upgrade choices even as Sennheiser drops to 150ohms these days; or not have enough power for a low impedance headphone that has even lower sensitivity.

Apart from that there's just something like the older Asgards sounding far too congested with some Sennheisers. Not that they made them worse, just that they absolute aren't even trying to make them image better (they'd have the same problems on cheaper amps, other than having very low noise or having good tonal balance and musical verve to not sound anemic).

IV) I have read that an independent sound card is generally not needed unless you own top notch equipment. Is that true or should I also be looking for a standalone sound hard to come with the headphones? I will be using them almost exclusively with my computer.

It depends on other factors.

Do your games have a native headphone audio mode? Then what do you need the soundcard for, really? I mean it's not like the amp stage totally sucks, just that you don't need the DSP you might as well get a good DAC and HPamp.

Do you have a headphone that will require a soundcard that cranks out a clean enough 500mW? Then sure it'll help. But then again if you're not even using the DSP why not just get a DAC and HPamp.

You may be on ATX now but are you absolutely sure you'll never go mITX? Or mATX but look at how fat graphics cards are getting. Wait are you sure ATX boards will always have the slot spacing you can use any fat graphics card without blocking the 8X for the soundcard or choking the air path? Are you sure SLI is totally absolutely dead with 4K+, 240hz+ displays possibly on the horizon?

 

[SirAuron701]

Hey everyone, thanks for the replies. As I am back from work I can now post a bit more detailed replies to your suggestions.

@Cruelhand Luke and @pbui44
As I noted earlier Philips X3/X2HR would both come at almost double the price compared to the 701 or the DT-990. Would you argue they are worth it?

@ProtegeManiac
Thank you very much for your detailed reply, I really appreciate it.

Based on your comments and further reading it seems that an amp is essential to reach the full potential of most headphones and going forwards I am thinking about investing in a very good tube amplifier and then trying different headphones on it. My current thinking is to start with the amp and the 701s and once I save up a bit more to graduate to a more premium set of headphones (was thinking one of the Sennheiser HD 600/650/660s)

Do you think this is a good idea or should I go for the best pair of headphones I can get and a basic amp and then look to upgrade the amplifier?

 

[silent-circuit]

Speaking as someone who owns Q701 (basically a retuned K701) and X2HR... No, the X2HR isn't worth 2x the K701. /Maybe/ the X3 is, but I doubt it.

In addition to the 600 series Sennheisers, look in to the Audio Technica ATH-R70X.

 

[pbui44]

Hey everyone, thanks for the replies. As I am back from work I can now post a bit more detailed replies to your suggestions.

@Cruelhand Luke and @pbui44
As I noted earlier Philips X3/X2HR would both come at almost double the price compared to the 701 or the DT-990. Would you argue they are worth it?

@ProtegeManiac
Thank you very much for your detailed reply, I really appreciate it.

Based on your comments and further reading it seems that an amp is essential to reach the full potential of most headphones and going forwards I am thinking about investing in a very good tube amplifier and then trying different headphones on it. My current thinking is to start with the amp and the 701s and once I save up a bit more to graduate to a more premium set of headphones (was thinking one of the Sennheiser HD 600/650/660s)

Do you think this is a good idea or should I go for the best pair of headphones I can get and a basic amp and then look to upgrade the amplifier?

Okay, so I took a step back and realized that you are not that confident in Amazon EU will not give you the best price, so I checked Thomann (primarily in Germany) and you were right, as I found an HD600 for €222 here:

https://m.thomann.de/gb/sennheiser_hd_600_new_version_2019.htm

The HD600 is to many, many people here as the most neutral (equal emphasis on bass-mids-treble) of the entire HD6xx (x’s being any given number, not Drop models ), but if you want a slightly brighter and slightly more precise (slightly sharper note definition) sound, then there is also the HD600S for €285 here:

https://m.thomann.de/gb/sennheiser_hd_660_s_new_version_2019.htm
M

However, the DAC/amps on Thomann are either too professional or too expensive for your tastes/budget, so I still recommend getting this amp and cables, which is said by many to noticeably improve the sound of a HD600/660S than with the onboard sound alone:

https://www.amazon.it/LOXJIE-P20-Ba...HJA30EX5SD9&psc=1&refRID=A0X9BCJZKHJA30EX5SD9

(HD600 only, as the newer HD660S already comes with with cable)
https://www.amazon.it/Cuffie-Placca...1&keywords=hd600+cable&qid=1617406541&sr=8-16

https://www.amazon.it/Fransande-dec...ords=4.4mm+to+xlr&qid=1617406628&sr=8-1-fkmr0

https://www.amazon.it/LINKINPERK-Au...FhUl4VwMzbE4fw/w==&smid=A3M5K1HE9PQRI0&sr=8-1

https://www.amazon.it/Fascette-Riut...words=velcro+cable+ties&qid=1617326078&sr=8-8

 

[buke9]

While I don’t think a amp is essential in all cases I will opt for one in most. I’ll err on the side of having it and not needing it than not having it and needing it.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

@ProtegeManiac
Thank you very much for your detailed reply, I really appreciate it.

Based on your comments and further reading it seems that an amp is essential to reach the full potential of most headphones and going forwards I am thinking about investing in a very good tube amplifier and then trying different headphones on it. My current thinking is to start with the amp and the 701s and once I save up a bit more to graduate to a more premium set of headphones (was thinking one of the Sennheiser HD 600/650/660s)

Do you think this is a good idea or should I go for the best pair of headphones I can get and a basic amp and then look to upgrade the amplifier?

I'd start with a good amp that can drive a low impedance, if not also lower sensitivity, headphone (doesn't necessarily mean a 16W per channel amp like the Lyr3, or even a Violectric that has 30V output) that by virtue of not making too many compromises doesn't have the output trailing off drastically to the point where you won't have 256mW into a 300ohm, ~96dB/1mW headphone.

That said...why would your upgrade path be an HD6xx series headphone? Are you basing this all on price? Because that's not what matters here. For one, the K701 and HD600 were competing for the same price range before, and while the HD600 is still $299 now vs how much less the K701 goes for, it's because Sennheiser has the HD58X...which is practically the HD600 but 1) with a revised 150ohm driver (that is otherwise not too different, though there are some response differences especially vs the first production runs of the HD600 that had a small 3500hz peak) and more important 2) has a new paint job. That may be harder to replace once it inevitably chips (assuming it is paint and a dye in the plastic itself) because AFAIK Sennheiser isn't supporting its custom spare parts (ie the plastic parts of the chassis) long term. Then there's the K702 and HD650. And now the new HD660S is an updated HD650 with a lower impedance.

Getting a good amp has more to do with just being able to upgrade to anything, like instead of shooting for a 512mW at 32ohm amp, might as well get one that can spit out 1Watt per channel and have 256mW at 300ohm or thereabouts, but not necessarily just for those Sennheisers.

And I'm not saying don't get those Sennheisers at all, I'm just saying they're not an upgrade path since you'll give up the K701's imaging in terms of sheer size of the image. You could wait a bit longer and get those Sennheisers instead.

And I'm saying this as someone who's had an HD600 since 2009. Not that it's bad, but I chose it over the K70x because 1) I could get it cheaper and 2) I didn't have to worry as much about the amp and got a Little Dot Mk2. Had I ran into the Cantate.2 I still have now years earlier then, or didn't run into a cheap used HD600, I'd have had no worries about the amp and gotten a K701. I wouldn't trade the Sennheiser and would still get a K701 cheap if I chanced on one (I recently just missed out on a local listing), but I wouldn't really advise other people to have both much less consider one an upgrade over the other. If you understand they're more of sidegrades where you make trade offs here and there, then sure, but it's not what I would really recommend anyone to do unless you're more willing to just spend money to figure out which headphones you prefer and then use that as your reference point for future upgrade recommendations.

 

[rlanger]

I picked up my Sundaras for about US$250 used, and while they actually sound pretty good straight out of the headphone jack on my laptop, they are significantly better when paired with my XDuoo amp that cost me about US$140.

I listen to much of the same music as you do, in addition to classical, electronica, classic rock etc, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find better performance for the $390 I shelled out for this combo.