[mtoc]

from technical view:
to use tons of components, very heat, giant and complex, to drive two capacitance loads that used to be called estats. there won't be simple IC solution for it, like lifting heavy weights for little effect, efficiency out of window.
estats need some revolution, or gonna be dead end

I can understand why someone will stick with planars, or even the infamous HD800

 

[hifixman]

Traformatic primavera and Viva 845 could drive Hd800 like champ as a TOTL electrostatic can. In Asia, HD800 has been deemed as the forever king of headphones by many veteran audiophiles.

Sharing the same music source, I was listening to my electrostatic system in the first half of night. Being immersed in music so much so that I thought I was still listening to the electrostatic setup even after switching to Viva& HD800s
Crazy… OG TOTL amps match best with OG cans.

 

[paradoxper]

from technical view:
to use tons of components, very heat, giant and complex, to drive two capacitance loads that used to be called estats. there won't be simple IC solution for it, like lifting heavy weights for little effect, efficiency out of window.
estats need some revolution, or gonna be dead end

I can understand why someone will stick with planars, or even the infamous HD800

There are plenty of energizers, those STAX engineer, and a plethora of zealotry options, as it has been for a time with Gilmore design.

Pick your budget: HD800 did well with ECBA, Dynahi, DNA, Studio > planars do well with Primavera, A&S, Woo 5/33 > stats scale BHSE, Carbon, T2 plenty of gaps
between KGSSHV, Megatron, GG, and still more options with higher quality transformer solutions.

No real dead ends or devolution.

 

[ThanatosVI]

Nowadays more and more solid state amps try to sound as tube amps while many tube amps try to sound like solid state

Well everyone tries to achieve the best of both worlds.

 

[Audio Addict]

How would only 15-18 ma vs 22 ma be enough to really make an e-stat headphone perform optimally?

On a tube basis you look at the voltage on either side of the stator as the driving capability. My A-10 used 5687 tubes with produce 300 volts so 600 volts total around each stator. The popular El34 produces 400 volts or 800 on each side. I think I read the T2 is 1000 volts per side.

 

[orientexpedite]

If anything I’d think the Carbon would be the more dynamic amp. The T2/megatron/GC amps are similar in their actual output current to the headphones, they just have a different sound signature, and none of them have as much bass impact as the Carbon (they all output 15ma-18ma vs 22ma on the Carbon).

The KG Grounded Grid also puts out 20ma; it's a Carbon with an EL34 tube output stage (instead of JFET devices). I wasn't aware of its current output performance myself, until recently. The Grounded Grid runs cool, and is a very fine sounding amp. Soren Brix is the only active builder that I'm aware of. I've been listening to one for the past couple of months; I would personally rate it a step higher than the Carbon, but it's still a step below the DIY T2/Megatron/Grand Cayman/Circlotron family.

Also, Birgir confirmed that his Carbon builds all run 20ma, as do those of the other reputable builders; this is done to safely manage operating temperatures, though the JFET output devices could easily run 22ma.

Birgir is doing a run of the Megatron, and Soren Brix still makes commissioned builds of the Megatron.

 

[orientexpedite]

How would only 15-18 ma vs 22 ma be enough to really make an e-stat headphone perform optimally?

On a tube basis you look at the voltage on either side of the stator as the driving capability. My A-10 used 5687 tubes with produce 300 volts so 600 volts total around each stator. The popular El34 produces 400 volts or 800 on each side. I think I read the T2 is 1000 volts per side.

The DIY T2 has 500V+- power supplies; the others (BHSE, Megatron, KGGG) typically have 400V+- power supplies. This results in a maximum stator-to-stator voltage swing of 2000V vs 1600V.

Interestingly, on the builder's forum, you'll find that many DIY T2 builders have settled on 400V+- for their personal builds. From their perspective, the performance doesn't change much with the reduced output voltage, and tube longevity is increased significantly.

Regarding sound signature, the absolute maximum voltage swing and output current are two factors, but the impact of the amplification circuit and the supporting power supply circuit on the actual performance and sound signature of the top tier amps are probably the largest factors:

DIY T2: DC coupled, tube input -> solid state interstage -> tube output
Megatron: AC coupled, tube input -> tube interstage -> tube output (sometimes with tube rectification)
Grand Cayman: AC coupled, tube input -> tube output, with tube rectification

 

[BassicScience]

You gonna regret.

Maybe you got one of the rare duds that are out in the wild that are lifeless. In this topic there are comparisons of 2 that sounded different than each other

Or just different ears

Regret is reserved for something you loved, lost, and can't get back. The X9000 will be available if and when I want to own one again. The timing of the sale had a lot to do with my current need to raise capital, coupled with a motivated buyer. I'm pretty sure my unit wasn't a "dud", as I'd heard a X9000 initially at CanJam NYC, and then borrowed @number1sixerfan 's. And just to be clear, it's a fantastic headphone in many respects. I still think its sweet spot is classical (true for many estats, IMO), but that's very much an occasional genre for me.

Great write-up. Good that it was such a clear decision, too!

I’m hoping I don’t end up in the same spot (since I sold my Susvara), but I don’t doubt for a moment that the Susvara will do some things better than the X9000. I’m hoping my other headphones (Phi TC, Empy, XC — all through a CFA3) help in those cases.

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it. Looks like you're pretty well covered for rock with the Phi TC (and others). As noted above, the Susvara will be available if and when you decide you need one again.

Rofl. People are so defensive here. I agree with the impressions. Imo, basicaly all estats have a tendency twoarda lack of presence that make the chain so so much more important and difficult to realy nail down. There isn't anything wrong with going "I've got an amazing chain that makes sus make me rap my foot. I have no desire in struggling to see if I can do the same for a can that doesn't do that"

Agree with these sentiments, but FWIW, the SGL Jr. does not lack presence at all to my ears. It's even a little more "in your face" than the Susvara, but as I've opined many times, its flaw is early bass roll-off (and a slightly hot treble). Nonetheless, the SGL Jr. still gets head time, especially for jazz. A propos that, I often like to stream WRTI Philadelphia, one of the truly great radio stations of any genre, IMHO.

I talked about this a bit in the x9000 thread - but with different tracks.
The x9000 has less volume change between quiet and loud passages, even in comparison to other estats (especially the sr-omega). This does not work well with older recordings, even remastered ones. The who's Bab o'riley is unlistenable for me on the x9000.
However, on newer mastered recordings, where the volume is already intentionally adjusted for dynamics (basically anything newly produced after 2000), the X9000's technical advantages make it an unbeatable headphone imo. The observation is basically that the x9000 is not so much genre sensitive as it is time-period sensitive lol.

Generally agree about estat dynamics, although as I noted at the start of this thread, the SGL seemed to fare better in that department, notably with large scale symphonic works. I also agree that the X9000 was superb overall with electronica, which genre definitely benefits from the X9000's elite staging. Interesting observation about Baba O'Reily. A lot of rock of that era suffered from tape compression and/or lowered bass levels to accommodate LPs. Anecdotally, when the Roxy Music catalog was released on SACD many years ago, I had very high hopes that remastering would yield sonic glory never realized on vinyl... but it wasn't to be. The limitations of the master tapes were still very much in evidence. When someone mentioned Roxy's tour on the Susvara thread a few months ago, I re-listened to several of the early Roxy albums on SACD on the X9000, and must say they sounded better than I'd ever heard them, likely due to the extra bit of clarity in the midrange.

Agree, we should be able to accept that everything isn't everyone's cup of tea and even though we may love something, there are always imperfections with it. Similar to Chefguru, I also shared similar thoughts in the x9000's thread about its "softness". We're all describing it a bit different, but it points to similar and consistent themes, which is ok.

For me, the x9000 could never be my ONLY driver for these reasons, but it's technically amazing and I enjoy the presentation at times as a complement to the others that I prefer as more of a standard.

You've been very clear about this certain laid-back quality of the X9000 from the beginning. I noticed it when I first auditioned it at CanJam NYC also. It's not the ideal headphone for listeners who prefer to sit close to the stage, which I very much do. Also agree that the X9000 is a complementary headphone, and I couldn't justify keeping it around in that role for $6k.

I also echo with the softness, which is shakingly apparent when ab with Shangrila SR in many systems. Yet I found using marbles-based isolation system in conjunction with silver coated PC on T2 with dynamic sounding Russian tubes could effectively and foundationally address that.

As the building and isolation material employed by the HE-1 amplifier, marble does not just to make it look pretty but also comes with underlying sonic reasonings and benefits.

I haven't been able to make a logical connection between isolation bases and audible improvements with headphones, but like I've said elsewhere: if something improves your listening experience, go for it. Just to be clear, I own an HRS rack, and still think it was a great investment for 2-channel listening despite the high price.

Yep — agree also. And from what I've heard so far, the Susvara would be the one for me. When I sold my Susvaras I wrote:

I need to put my head inside a Shangri-La next. Even with that, though — I expect to love it! — I'm not sure it IS possible for me to have one pair of headphones. There are times that the best thing on my bonce is the Empyreans. And I already know that they sound nothing like any of my other gear.

For me, headphones is an AND thing, not an OR thing. (Not the case with speakers, but that's for pretty obvious physical reasons.)

Yes, courtesy of @number1sixerfan , I will have the opportunity to listen to the SGL again for a few days before his impending move to Chitown. I definitely do want to own an estat (preferably just one), but a potential $12-14k purchase needs to be vetted thoroughly in my world. I would also like to hear the Warwick offerings before I make a final decision. That may happen at CanJam NYC (if I go, and if they go), but there's no rush to sort it out due to my current financial situation, anyway.

Philosophically, I understand the multiple headphone concept, as they all involve compromises to a higher degree than do speakers. OTOH, I would prefer any headphone I use to be able to handle every genre to a certain (fairly high) standard. I'm something of a minimalist at heart, and too much equipment can be a distraction from just enjoying music. Same with EQ fiddling, for me. As we know, there are many roads to Rome, so I guess we should all enjoy the scenery from whichever one we're taking (tortured metaphor alert! ).

-----------

Probably a good place to end this for now. There was a lot of activity in this thread yesterday, so I'll try to reply to some other messages later.

 

[Frankie D]

I still think its sweet spot is classical (true for many estats, IMO), but that's very much an occasional genre for me.

It is also fantastic with jazz.

 

[mtoc]

rereading that long post, simply put, is the honeymoon period that has ended...

 

[ufospls2]

@BassicScience

I was thinking about your move back to the Susvara from the X9000 and was wondering how your feelings are about the Shangri-la Sr lately compared to the Susvara. No other reason than pure curiosity.

 

[BassicScience]

@BassicScience

I was thinking about your move back to the Susvara from the X9000 and was wondering how your feelings are about the Shangri-la Sr lately compared to the Susvara. No other reason than pure curiosity.

@number1sixerfan was kind enough to loan me the SGL again for a few days earlier this week, and I've been a bit too busy to write up my impressions yet, but the short answer is I now consider the SGL the greatest headphone I've ever heard, and it's not particularly close. Note that I still haven't heard either of the Warwick estats, and had only a very limited listening session with the HE-1 perhaps five years ago. Particularly for someone who likes the Susvara, I have a hard time imagining they wouldn't love the SGL. It's an astounding headphone, technically and musically, IMHO.

More in the next couple of days...

 

[orrman]

Particularly for someone who likes the Susvara, I have a hard time imagining they wouldn't love the SGL.

I might be in a minority here, but after a short session with the SGL SR (through Dave/mscaler and 3ES Elite) I actually preferred the X9000 and Susvara on other chains but it can definitely be the entire chain and not the headphones that skewed those impressions. My wallet definitely enjoyed that though.

 

[BassicScience]

I might be in a minority here, but after a short session with the SGL SR (through Dave/mscaler and 3ES Elite) I actually preferred the X9000 and Susvara on other chains but it can definitely be the entire chain and not the headphones that skewed those impressions. My wallet definitely enjoyed that though.

A number of people whose ears I respect haven't been particularly impressed with the SGL. I think many of those impressions have come from show demos, and perhaps with HFM's matching amp, which I've never heard. If you recall my initial impressions in this thread, I rated the SGL and X9000 much more on par than I do currently. Both headphones were completely new to my ears then, and I now have the benefit of having lived with the X9000. IMO, the SGL needs a bass shelf of 2-3dB, but once dialed in, it delivered absolutely glorious sound with whatever I threw at it. The Susvara and X9000 do present music at more of a remove, so perhaps some listeners are put off by the immediacy of the SGL. It's front row listening!

 

[BTD1]

A number of people whose ears I respect haven't been particularly impressed with the SGL. I think many of those impressions have come from show demos, and perhaps with HFM's matching amp, which I've never heard. If you recall my initial impressions in this thread, I rated the SGL and X9000 much more on par than I do currently. Both headphones were completely new to my ears then, and I now have the benefit of having lived with the X9000. IMO, the SGL needs a bass shelf of 2-3dB, but once dialed in, it delivered absolutely glorious sound with whatever I threw at it. The Susvara and X9000 do present music at more of a remove, so perhaps some listeners are put off by the immediacy of the SGL. It's front row listening!

I'll add my two cents. the SGL Sr with a bass shelf as suggested is glorious. I have been listen to full out romantic symphonies lately with a hundred instruments going on all at once and it is pretty breathtaking the way the SGL separates and positions all these instrument types, presenting a feeling of sweep and depth and overall bigness. It's just perfect for this kind of music. Its presentation is grand. I have yet to receive the Aperio so I can't compare it yet. Whether the SGL is worth 15K is another question, but boy it can really grab hold of you with a large, enveloping sound.