E-MU 1212M goes for the modded RME's jugular
May 4, 2004 at 10:55 PM Post #241 of 260
Quote:

Originally Posted by halcyon
However, superior sound quality (<> signal quality) cannot be proven with RMAA measurements (we already know that basic THD, IMD, channel separation, amplitude response and noise/dynamic range measurements do not fully explain the audible differences in sound sources, for example).


I have different view here.

While I think RMAA measurement may not good enough for measurement (personally I prefer AP measurement), but how we define a good sound quality? By listening?

If you talk about listening, I would rather say it is more about personal preference and it is subjective.
 
May 5, 2004 at 12:35 AM Post #242 of 260
Quote:

Originally Posted by halcyon
There are techincal valid reasons to be cautious about computer sound cards as high end audio sources, IMHO.


No need to be cautious. They're just sound cards. And the beloved Meridian's since the 588 are computers after all, whether or not anyone is willing to admit it. A really really well built and specialized one, though.
I believe a computer can be made to be far better than your average PC. That's what a soldering iron is for.....

Quote:

1) jitter measured in nano- rather than picoseconds (good cd players hover around 100-200 ps RMS, EMU in 1000 ps, audibility ranges range depending on author from 120ps all the way up to 3500ns, just to give some simplified RMS levels for jitter)


This is definitely in the range of diminishing returns. I'll have to hear for myself, though......

Quote:

2) op-amps, I/V conversions, analog output stage couplings. We already know that the usually very cheap parts must be used for $100-$200 retail price products. Not only that, perfectly valid engineering compromises must be made in regards to output impedance, output voltage levels, price of components and actual sound quality. Iron_Dreamer's and other's modding experiments also point to this direction. It's not as easy to make a high quality cd-player (say Audio Aero Capitole Mk II) better by tinkering with caps exhanges, imho.


Absolutely. And it's alot easier to take a soldering iron to a $200 sound card, than a $2000 CD player.

Quote:

3) switched mode limited voltage power sources. Most analog audio designers will tell you why switched mode PSUs are difficult or very problematic to control. Sound cards are not different in this respect. The voltage regulation and power source cleaning on a small PCI card from a noisy PCI-channel from a noisy switched mode PSU (regardless of it's high quality in terms of computer components, like Emacs/Zippy) source is quite difficult. At least compared to the extent that power supply control can be carried out on a high quality cd player that has absolutely separate (dedicated) power feeds for both digital and audio parts with excellent voltage capacity and superior filtering.


I plan to solve this problem with a PCI bus power bypass. (Still working on it.)

Quote:

However, the doubt remains for some people and I think this doubt can be based on possible real issues.


They can doubt all they want, but you never know until you try. There's always the brave few that will try to make improvements rather than accept the status quo.

Quote:

The best thing is, as recommended by others, to sit down and listen. If you like it, consider the potential savings and be happy. If not, move on and try again after a few new generations.


Amen to that. The more "heated" argmuents are the usual over-generalization arguments that have bludgeoned that perverbial horse to death a long time ago.

-Ed
 
May 5, 2004 at 2:08 AM Post #243 of 260
May 5, 2004 at 2:11 AM Post #244 of 260
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ph34rful
This is what you need to hook up to the Emu using standard RCAs right?
http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=274%2D884
Well 2 of them anyway.

Also do you guys think these would degrade sound quality?


Indeed, those are the ones. As for the latter question, I ahven't used those particular adapters before, but the only time I've noticed an RS adapter lower sound quality is when used at a headphone level signal, not a line level signal.
 
May 5, 2004 at 2:38 AM Post #245 of 260
I don't know weather to order custom cables for the Emu (probably have a rough time with reselling them) or to just buy standard RCAs and use the adapters.
 
May 5, 2004 at 2:49 AM Post #246 of 260
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ph34rful
I don't know weather to order custom cables for the Emu (probably have a rough time with reselling them) or to just buy standard RCAs and use the adapters.


Well it makes you seem as if you plan on not keeping the EMU, if that is the case then I guess I'd go with the adapters. I am planning on making the EMU my last source stop for sometime, so today I built some custom cables with Canare Star Quad, Neutrik 1/4" TS jacks and Pro-fi RCA connectors. Cost me all of $23 shipped from makertek.com
 
May 5, 2004 at 7:51 PM Post #247 of 260
Well I got my nes stock EMU today, and compaing it to Sduibek's modded one, it is pretty clear that the blackgates significanlty improved the soundstaging/imaging and made the sound overall more enjoyable. No real change in frequency response between the two, as far as I can tell, though. The presentation, and tightness of the sound are what changes

In the next week or so I will be slapping a load of blackgates ontoo my new card, along with a couple pairs of OPA627's. This should be my source for quite some time.
 
May 5, 2004 at 10:40 PM Post #248 of 260
Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron_Dreamer
Well I got my nes stock EMU today, and compaing it to Sduibek's modded one, it is pretty clear that the blackgates significanlty improved the soundstaging/imaging and made the sound overall more enjoyable. No real change in frequency response between the two, as far as I can tell, though. The presentation, and tightness of the sound are what changes

In the next week or so I will be slapping a load of blackgates ontoo my new card, along with a couple pairs of OPA627's. This should be my source for quite some time.


A couple pairs of 627's? Doesn't the E-MU 1212m only have one analog output? Or are you experimenting with something?
biggrin.gif


-Ed
 
May 5, 2004 at 10:53 PM Post #249 of 260
Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwood
A couple pairs of 627's? Doesn't the E-MU 1212m only have one analog output? Or are you experimenting with something?
biggrin.gif


-Ed


No there are two output opamps (dual channel), one per channel, since it is balanced. So in order to replace them I would need 4 OPA627 for it to work. I'm also gonna try the LT1122 and give the AD8065 another shot.
 
May 5, 2004 at 11:40 PM Post #250 of 260
Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron_Dreamer
No there are two output opamps (dual channel), one per channel, since it is balanced. So in order to replace them I would need 4 OPA627 for it to work. I'm also gonna try the LT1122 and give the AD8065 another shot.


Guess I shouldn't have returned those spare 627's and 1122's so hastliy, eh?
tongue.gif


-Ed
 
May 5, 2004 at 11:47 PM Post #251 of 260
Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwood
Guess I shouldn't have returned those spare 627's and 1122's so hastliy, eh?
tongue.gif


-Ed


Well that is life for ya, eh?

Comparing the stock and modded EMU's to the modded RME today, I get the feeling that the bass on the RME is overdone, whereas it is closer to right on the EMUs. On "neutral" or thin sounding recordings, the RME fills them out so that you don't hear the lack of bass/impact, but the EMU lets you hear how thin they really are. On thicker, more complex stuff, the RME's output sounds a bit muddy and non-detailed compared to the EMU, which resolves detail in the bass better because it is a bit leaner than the RME.

Perhaps this is all becuase of the bassier nature of the CD3000, and the EMu would sound thin on other cans. But the EMU certainly has good fast punchy bass, because if it didn't get the bass right I sure wouldn't want it. Remember I preferred the CD3K over the R10 for a lot of music, becuase the CD3000 has more bass. Based on that, if anything I should perfer the RME, because it also has more bass, but strangely I don't feel like I'm losing anything by going from the RME to the EMU (in reality gaining quite a bit).
 
May 6, 2004 at 12:46 AM Post #252 of 260
Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron_Dreamer
Well that is life for ya, eh?

Comparing the stock and modded EMU's to the modded RME today, I get the feeling that the bass on the RME is overdone, whereas it is closer to right on the EMUs. On "neutral" or thin sounding recordings, the RME fills them out so that you don't hear the lack of bass/impact, but the EMU lets you hear how thin they really are. On thicker, more complex stuff, the RME's output sounds a bit muddy and non-detailed compared to the EMU, which resolves detail in the bass better because it is a bit leaner than the RME.

Perhaps this is all becuase of the bassier nature of the CD3000, and the EMu would sound thin on other cans. But the EMU certainly has good fast punchy bass, because if it didn't get the bass right I sure wouldn't want it. Remember I preferred the CD3K over the R10 for a lot of music, becuase the CD3000 has more bass. Based on that, if anything I should perfer the RME, because it also has more bass, but strangely I don't feel like I'm losing anything by going from the RME to the EMU (in reality gaining quite a bit).


Interesting how perceptions shift relative to experience, eh?

I still think the bass is too thin, but again, I'd say you've found an excellent synergy with the CD3000's. All notions of bloated bass are put to bed with the E-MU.

Next time, we'll try other headphones that are quite bass "lite" in comparison, namely the ER4S and K1000's. Those are well considered more neutral sounding. So it will be interesting to hear if anything drops out or is just flattened. (the Ety's are my favorite for analyzing minute details.)

-Ed
 
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