[Whitigir]

It's all good bro. It is an interesting read regardless (IMO).

Thanks! Our preferences and references will always change up with the more experiences we accumulated … and with that…we know how much we have burned into this hobby

 

[samandhi]

Thanks! Our preferences and references will always change up with the more experiences we accumulated … and with that…we know how much we have burned into this hobby

This is so true. Actually, I have learned a lot from you over time (as well as MANY others). There is something to be said for accumulated wisdom....

Burned into, or burned out???

 

[Altes]

Question about firmware sound. I read that 2.04 had a huge sub-bass boost. Not having used any DAPs for ages, I updated to firmware 2.04 and listened to my bass anemic headphone on the DX320. my headphone sounded just as bass anemic. But i read some say all they could hear was the bass covering other frequencies on firmware 2.04. did i get the firmware wrong?

 

[Whitigir]

Question about firmware sound. I read that 2.04 had a huge sub-bass boost. Not having used any DAPs for ages, I updated to firmware 2.04 and listened to my bass anemic headphone on the DX320. my headphone sounded just as bass anemic. But i read some say all they could hear was the bass covering other frequencies on firmware 2.04. did i get the firmware wrong?

Nah, people most often exaggerate the differences between firmwares. In reality, there may be changes, but it isn’t going to be as drastic as say….buying another DAP or another amp module or both.

If anything at all, firmware differences can be compared to the effects of cables or even lesser than that …think of differences between MicroSD or different chassis materials . While we are at it, I have seen people mistakenly take that it only happens to Ibasso products, which isn’t true. It happens to all players and all brands, none of them are immune to it.

From years of playing around, I take that the reasons why there are different signatures and changes are due to the way the system works as a whole. The processing in primary task VS other tasks and multiple layers of multi tasks processing in parallels. If you root your players and have it set to prioritize only music with minimal multi task processing, you will hear the differences. Also, you will hear the differences if using the same firmware and pack it in a different orders in a Zip folder or compiling, it will have an effect. All of this could also be a form of battery limitations from it dynamic transients capability to provide instantaneous swings between different loads and draws….no body know…because no one want to acknowledge it. With Ibasso, they are a bit different, they are always very open minded and would always try to judge sound performances with their own team and or with feedbacks from the community, and most likely will improve upon the next firmware versions.

However, no company will go out there and do research on these matters, because they got bashed to hell and kept on being beaten. For example, Sony and their Audiophile MicroSD or their disclosures about burn in ….etc… chassis materials…

Whatever float anyone boats, manufacturers just want to sell products and will do whatever it take, with some being different than others, and Ibasso/Sony are some of those which are all dedicated to Music

 

[SRKRAM]

Wow, after all of that babbling and I arrived at the final conclusion “it is all about preferences” . Now you see why I rarely post up anymore

I agree. You can't argue with anybody's preferences. Personally, I like Sony's approach of developing excellent DSP features which can be used to adjust the sound in ways which I find very useful. Sony also develop their own noise shaping DACS, but because of their scale they're implemented as ASICs rather than FPGAs.

 

[Whitigir]

I agree. You can't argue with anybody's preferences. Personally, I like Sony's approach of developing excellent DSP features which can be used to adjust the sound in ways which I find very useful. Sony also develop their own noise shaping DACS, but because of their scale they're implemented as ASICs rather than FPGAs.

They do have FPGA now on the newer M2 as well

 

[nioh]

I will throw a can of worms here

I have been very enthusiastic about these matters and always try to find out the “how” , the “why” and finally, the “will it”

My conclusions are very solid in this matters and hence you don’t see me much in R2R or looking forward to it.

The How : R2R relying on resistors ladder values to convert binary into voltages . Then it gets converted by algorithms from the other chips

The Why : because people ask for it. There are huge demands for it

The will it : Will it sound superior to other systems ? It is personal preferences. But let’s say, I have compared desktop to desktop systems. The R2R is behind in many aspects. But it can bring it magic similar to how MP3 will bring music. You don’t know exactly what is missing, until you know and realize them. But it isn’t as obvious as MP3 in comparison to 24/192Khz file quality. What it is lacking is the micro dynamic, the edges textures, the extensions of the reverberations…etc..However, it has it own magic as I mentioned, the distortions and corrections can be very musical and resembling the classical Analog systems. Especially when it is slightly tuned with a V-Shaped filters

I then researched some very interesting facts that resistors have very high error tolerances, and typically is 0.05% . This isn’t enough for high resolutions calculations from high fidelity algorithms. Therefore, there would be a lot of curving up/down the values that the resistors sees and puts out.

Because of these curves, for example, like we used to learn in grade school and decimal that you could curve up anything higher than 0.5 to be the value of 1 and anything below 0.5 to be the value of 0!!!

Also because of the curves, the operational temperatures will also change the values from the resistors. It is no longer seeing a values of 0.4mV but rather seeing 0.5mV. Therefore instead of rounding down to 0, now it is rounding up to 1. The exactly reason why you will see R2R to be effecting vastly by temperature. Other more experienced manufacturers such as MSB are using an enclosed housing with Thermal element to always government the inside temperature of each module to be at the most optimal temperature but it also needs time to warm up as well….it can be done…but at a cost

Finally, it can’t not get to the precision level of Silicons on waffles !! Which is essentially an integrated chip…AKA Any IC , such as AK4499EQ !!!! But then again, the reason why it is highly sought after is because of the distortions and noises. Music and sound are essentially distortions and noises, so analog systems are great to listen to, vacuum tubes….etc…same goes for R2R

But the kicker here is that despite being R2R or IC, they can only follow 2 topologies . Over sampling or Non Oversampling. People most often are confused between NOS with R2R and OS with IC which are not true.

Anyways, DAC topology is only a small chain, why ? Because they can, on the paper, exceed human limitations!!! The reasons why some older DAC back in the 90 of flagship tiers also have amazing sound !!!!

You then would ask, what really is the matter here ?

My answers : it is all about the analog tunings, from the power supply to the analog line filters, and finally toward the pre amplifications and last but not least, the amplification stages

After all of this, I can tell you only 1 conclusion, R2R or IC chips, they don’t matter….what matter is how it is being designed, tuned , integrated, pairing up or matching up to your own preferences and your gears

Wow, after all of that babbling and I arrived at the final conclusion “it is all about preferences” . Now you see why I rarely post up anymore

Very informative, especially to someone like me who is not an electronics pro. I ready every line !

I fully agree that in the end it's all about preferences. But then again I would never know what I prefer unless I first try things out and see how it sounds to me. Take for example the IT05. I'm happy with it's performance but I'm disappointed by the weight, it doesn't stay on the ear so easily as other light weight IEMs. Now I know to be careful while buying any IEM with a metal housing and I always look at the weight.
I also learnt that it takes patience to appreciate a DAP. I almost sold my Dx320 at first. Later ended buying a lot more from iBasso. I still can't believe how I like the 599 bucks SR3 more than the Z1R.

As you rightly said, it's not all in the papers. Most important is the implementation, tuning etc. I have different DACs with the same chips which sound totally different.
Last but not least, personally for "me", what is also important is portability, software (UI), performance and of course the price (read value for money).

 

[nioh]

Question about firmware sound. I read that 2.04 had a huge sub-bass boost. Not having used any DAPs for ages, I updated to firmware 2.04 and listened to my bass anemic headphone on the DX320. my headphone sounded just as bass anemic. But i read some say all they could hear was the bass covering other frequencies on firmware 2.04. did i get the firmware wrong?

As Whitigir already said, "huge" is exaggerating. It also depends on which AMP module you are using.
With the stock AMP11Mk2S, for me there's just enough bass and it sounds perfect. I didn't like the AMP13, but it has nothing to do with any particular firmware version.
I've read that the AMP14 provides the best of all worlds - details and warmth. I haven't bought one myself because I'm really satisfied with the stock AMP.

 

[SRKRAM]

They do have FPGA now on the newer M2 as well

That's interesting. Where are the DSP features implemented? Are they in FPGA or the SoC DSP or somewhere else?

 

[Whitigir]

That's interesting. Where are the DSP features implemented? Are they in FPGA or the SoC DSP or somewhere else?

I can’t be so sure, but I would say that Sony perform most of the DSP by the SOC, except DSD-Remastering which is done by FPGA

 

[dumpsterfire]

I’ve got a 320 on the way! Question, is there any reason to get an amp 13 if I’m getting an amp 14 and am able to run all my headphones and IEMs in balanced mode?

Also, if the hardest to drive headphone I have is the HD650, is amp 12 necessary or will amps 11 and 14 work just as well? As I’m sure you can tell, I’m definitely getting amp 14, just not sure if either of the other amps are worth getting at this point. Thanks!

 

[NAD Fi]

As Whitigir already said, "huge" is exaggerating. It also depends on which AMP module you are using.
With the stock AMP11Mk2S, for me there's just enough bass and it sounds perfect. I didn't like the AMP13, but it has nothing to do with any particular firmware version.
I've read that the AMP14 provides the best of all worlds - details and warmth. I haven't bought one myself because I'm really satisfied with the stock AMP.

Distortion and group delay in the bass region can make bass subwoofery when in reality it isn’t. My ears tell me amp 11.2 is stronger than amp 14 in the sub base regions. I also don’t think I could say with a straight face the differences between 2.03 and 2.04 is subtle on amp11.2; amp14 made it more tolerable. I am starting to feel bored listening to FW2.05 which is somewhat better, but still not as correct as 2.03; with the boosted warmth it feels like I am having porridge as every meal.

 

[hellfire8888]

i prefer FW 2.05 on AMP13 over AMP11.2

 

[FooFighter]

Sorry If it was asked before but is it normal that the tube module gets easily detached from the board once changing amps?
I don't mean the cable to the board circuit but the NuTube module itself

 

[Keizoxx]

Sorry If it was asked before but is it normal that the tube module gets easily detached from the board once changing amps?
I don't mean the cable to the board circuit but the NuTube module itself

The default 3m foam tapes seems not strong enough? Maybe due to heat? I had replace the tapes with stronger 3m foam tapes on both amp13/14.