Dual DACs in DAPS
Jan 10, 2019 at 7:30 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 15
taffy2207

taffy2207

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So, I'm looking at buying a new DAP. The 2 main contenders for me at the moment are the New Cowon Plenue D2 (Dual DAC) and the Ibasso DX120 (single DAC). I could go a lot higher in price but at 47 I don't think I'll see much benefit plus there's the diminishing returns thing as you go higher up the price chain.

Hopefully a simple question, Is there any significant benefit to implementing Dual DACs in DAPs?

I'm getting the feeling it's a numbers thing in Audio Marketing again (more DACS = better sort of thing).

Also, if there is a big benefit to implementing Dual DACs surely every Manufacturer would be doing it considering the low cost of DACs now, particularly when buying in bulk (I suspect it'll go that way, though).

So is it pointless, down to how the DACs are implemented, down to the DACs themselves or down to features on the DAP (eg Balanced Out) ?

I'm not really into Tech, I'm more into Music so if it's a simple answer, you'll have to forgive me.
 
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Jan 10, 2019 at 9:24 AM Post #2 of 15
Don’t put too much stock into the following as I probably am one of the least scientific round these parts, but I recently had a Pioneer XDP-300 with dual dacs as well as a dual amp figuration (whatever that means).
I could power my dt770 (250 ohm) as well as most other cans in my collection, which was neat, but, aside from all the muscles it brought to the table, there was no difference between that and my old iPod nano once the volumes had been matched. It was also far too clunky and big for portable use imho. Who wants to carry around an extra lunchbox?
I sold off the Pioneer and got 4 used headphones in its place - plus some change.
 
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Jan 10, 2019 at 9:32 AM Post #3 of 15
To paraphrase bigshot, all modern DACs are completely transparent. Having two of them can't improve on that.

As to Balanced output, there was a recent thread here where the consensus was that unless you're driving studio monitors over a long, long distance, you don't need it. I'd go for features that make your life easier, such as a clean, intuitive user interface.
 
Jan 10, 2019 at 11:52 AM Post #4 of 15
StandsOnFeet said:
To paraphrase bigshot, all modern DACs are completely transparent. Having two of them can't improve on that.

As to Balanced output, there was a recent thread here where the consensus was that unless you're driving studio monitors over a long, long distance, you don't need it. I'd go for features that make your life easier, such as a clean, intuitive user interface.
Click to expand...

That's pretty much what I suspected (I also read that thread about Balanced Output). The silly thing is, at least with me, is that while Cowon are trying to impress with numbers, it's actually putting me off buying the D2. If the second DAC isn't needed then it's just another component that could potentially fail in the D2.

A reason not to buy rather than to buy, for me, if you will.
 
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Jan 10, 2019 at 12:12 PM Post #5 of 15
StandsOnFeet said:
To paraphrase bigshot, all modern DACs are completely transparent. Having two of them can't improve on that.
Click to expand...

Not quite... Modern DACs SHOULD be completely transparent. If they are designed to meet spec for digital audio, they should be totally transparent. If one sounds different from the others, it has to be colored in some way. I am open to the possibility that a colored DAC exists, it's just that no one has been able to come up with one yet that can be proved with controlled testing.

My advice would be to buy the least expensive DAC you can find that has the features you want. When you get it, carefully compare it with a source known to be transparent. If it tests identical, then you've saved a lot of money. If it doesn't match (which is unlikely) then return it for a refund as defective.
 
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Jan 10, 2019 at 12:16 PM Post #6 of 15
taffy2207 said:
That's pretty much what I suspected (I also read that thread about Balanced Output). The silly thing is, at least with me, is that while Cowon are trying to impress with numbers, it's actually putting me off buying the D2. If the second DAC isn't needed then it's just another component that could potentially fail in the D2.

A reason not to buy rather than to buy, for me, if you will.
Click to expand...

DAPs, like most electronics, have long passed the threshold of being audibly transparent. Buy them for the features that fit your needs - if that happens to be a DAP with dual DACS, I wouldn't let that impact the decision if it's other features were compelling.

I bought a DX90 because at the time, it supported the largest external memory chip which was the single most important criteria in my purchase. The dual DACs came along for the ride. At the time, iPhones didn't offer anything larger than 64Gb and since the phone was paid for by my employer, I wasn't in the market for an Android with swappable memory. Ironically, I rarely use the DAP anymore as my current phone has sufficient memory to store a subset of my library for travel/mobile listening.
 
Jan 10, 2019 at 12:31 PM Post #7 of 15
I got a microSD card reader for my iPhone and now it holds half a TB!
 
Jan 10, 2019 at 2:54 PM Post #9 of 15
You can find even quatro-DACs. Some products use a 8 x channel ESS in en 2x4 configuration.
It is a bit like a balanced connection, there the difference between hot and cold is rejected, likewise the difference between the DACs is rejected. By doing so the SNR improves with a couple dB’s
As modern single DACs in a well designed eco system are a -120 dBfs , one might wonder if you gain much. On the other hand, it won’t do harm to lower the noise floor as much as you can.

I shouldn’t look at the type of specs, just look at the SNR of the product. Tells you more.
If I look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowon_D2
At 95 dB, the SNR is bit poor imho. However this is a 2006 design.
 
Jan 10, 2019 at 2:55 PM Post #10 of 15
bfreedma said:
DAPs, like most electronics, have long passed the threshold of being audibly transparent. Buy them for the features that fit your needs - if that happens to be a DAP with dual DACS, I wouldn't let that impact the decision if it's other features were compelling.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's what I did last time, my current DAP was perfect for commuting. I'll continue the research for a while, I'm in no rush.
 
Jan 10, 2019 at 2:58 PM Post #11 of 15
Roseval said:
You can find even quatro-DACs. Some products use a 8 x channel ESS in en 2x4 configuration.
It is a bit like a balanced connection, there the difference between hot and cold is rejected, likewise the difference between the DACs is rejected. By doing so the SNR improves with a couple dB’s
As modern single DACs in a well designed eco system are a -120 dBfs , one might wonder if you gain much. On the other hand, it won’t do harm to lower the noise floor as much as you can.

I shouldn’t look at the type of specs, just look at the SNR of the product. Tells you more.
If I look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowon_D2
At 95 dB, the SNR is bit poor imho. However this is a 2006 design.
Click to expand...

My bad it's the Plenue D2 (It's fresh, like out of the Oven fresh), not the old D2. Cowon are idiots when it comes to naming their DAPs, they need a good slap. I've edited my first post to include 'Plenue'.
 
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Jan 10, 2019 at 4:08 PM Post #13 of 15
What audible difference does it make? It sounds like it's only a difference on paper, not to human ears.

I didn't have my glasses on when I first read this, and it looked like they named it Plenus. That is a good name. I can think of a bunch of great ad copy for that name.
 
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