[cOSteLLo]

You are of course right jpelg, its always best to trust your ears!
 
I think it would be intresting to find out what the companies original thoughts were on the different Impedances though... I am a fan of beyerdynamic, because unlike Sennheiser or AKG (the big 3 in and around Germany) the Headphones are all put together by hand right here in Germany.
 
@ Mad Lust Eny: You are right! According to Mr.Grooff the Pads for each 770, 880 and 990 have especially been designed to match the drivers.

 

[Yoga Flame]

According to a new article by Tyll Hertsens (http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/comparison-beyerdynamic-dt-880-32-ohm-dt-880-250-ohm-and-dt-880-600-ohm-headphones), there are small differences between the 250Ω and 600Ω versions. The 600Ω one has "slightly more finesse in the highs" and a better 300Hz square wave response graph. The reason is the damping factor which is a direct result of the higher impedance. But other than the slight differences in the highs, the various ohm versions "were fairly similar sounding".
 

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

According to a new article by Tyll Hertsens (http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/comparison-beyerdynamic-dt-880-32-ohm-dt-880-250-ohm-and-dt-880-600-ohm-headphones), there are small differences between the 250Ω and 600Ω versions. The 600Ω one has "slightly more finesse in the highs" and a better 300Hz square wave response graph. The reason is the damping factor which is a direct result of the higher impedance. But other than the slight differences in the highs, the various ohm versions "were fairly similar sounding".
 

Not only is that article from a reviewer publication that has an advertisement for Beyer right after the article,  it is also a load of horse pucky.  Tyll went into it with preconceived expectations and of course he heard what he expected to hear. 
 
Our HF NJ crew was all set up to do a 600ohm Vs 250ohm DB test but since no one could hear a difference while sighted, they called off the rest of the test. 
 
Saw the graphs, read the article.  My conclusion: no audible differences.
 
It remains to be seen if Tyll's conclusions can be repeated without knowing which headphone you're listening to.
 
 
USG
 

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

I did the listening test not knowing which was which and did come out picking the 600 ohm as the slightly cleaner sounding can, but it wasn't a strict ABX double blind test.
 
Quote:

Not only is that article from a reviewer publication that has an advertisement for Beyer right after the article,  it is also a load of horse pucky.  
USG
 

 
That part is snide, caustic, speculative, poorly motivated baloney. Get a grip.
 
Evidently you don't know me very well.
 
 

 
 

 

[maverickronin]

Not only is that article from a reviewer publication that has an advertisement for Beyer right after the article,  it is also a load of horse pucky.  Tyll went into it with preconceived expectations and of course he heard what he expected to hear. 
 
Our HF NJ crew was all set up to do a 600ohm Vs 250ohm DB test but since no one could hear a difference while sighted, they called off the rest of the test. 
 
Saw the graphs, read the article.  My conclusion: no audible differences.
 
It remains to be seen if Tyll's conclusions can be repeated without knowing which headphone you're listening to.
 
 
USG
 

There's this new thing called "context based advertisments" that's been going around the internet these days.

Maybe you've heard of it? :wink_face:

Of course, beyond that is the fact that Beyer seems to be very fond of making slight hardware revisions without telling anyone. For instance earlier in this thread Donald North measured an older 880/250 against a brand new 880/600 and found an audible difference in the treble. In the listening test you had at that meet they were audibly identical. I don't think anyone is lying. I think that manufacturing variation and silent revisions are what's behind most of this

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Quote:

There's this new thing called "context based advertisments" that's been going around the internet these days.

Maybe you've heard of it?

 

 
Ha, that's funny.  When I looked it was a different ad for HiFiMAN.  And to be truthful, I didn't even know Beyer had placed an ad.
 
The sales guy saw my post and emailed me just this AM and asked if I had a contact at Beyer, which I gave him, so I thought we didn't even have them as an advertiser. 
 
All I do is report what I experience and measure in an effort to be interesting to you guys.
 
Then they sell the traffic.  
 

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

Ha, that's funny.  When I looked it was a different ad for HiFiMAN.  And to be truthful, I didn't even know Beyer had placed an ad.
 
The sales guy saw my post and emailed me just this AM and asked if I had a contact at Beyer, which I gave him, so I thought we didn't even have them as an advertiser. 
 
All I do is report what I experience and measure in an effort to be interesting to you guys.
 
Then they sell the traffic.  
 

Well, I appreciated your article Tyll and it's nice to have you around still.  I can certainly process data and information and make up my own mind about it rather than having some impose their "knowledge" upon me.  Your work and effort is appreciated.  Thanks.
 

 

[melomaniac]

for what it's worth, although I am neither blind nor doubly so, I can hear a difference between my DT880-250 and my DT880-600. I like them both. and no, I am not feeding trolls here by trying to describe exactly what exactly the difference can be deduced from - it's a different sound, and compounded (take that, suckers) by the different cables used...
 

 

[Shike]

Quote:

for what it's worth, although I am neither blind nor doubly so, I can hear a difference between my DT880-250 and my DT880-600. I like them both. and no, I am not feeding trolls here by trying to describe exactly what exactly the difference can be deduced from - it's a different sound, and compounded (take that, suckers) by the different cables used...
 

No one is trolling, we're just asking for evidence of the claims you present.  If you can't provide an evidence based claim then expect us to take said claims with a grain of salt.
 

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

I did the listening test not knowing which was which and did come out picking the 600 ohm as the slightly cleaner sounding can, but it wasn't a strict ABX double blind test.
 
 
That part is snide, caustic, speculative, poorly motivated baloney. Get a grip.
 
Evidently you don't know me very well.
 

We all appreciate all the work you've done Tyll, but unless you did the test with your eyes closed, there were visual differences between those headphones.
 
"Snide, caustic, speculative etc", you bet.  I've been around too long to believe that what I read in reviewer publications is fact.....  and, btw, so have you.
 
It was a nice article and I appreciate your effort as well as your insights, but until your findings are replicated (properly), they remain anecdotal.
 
It's true that I don't know you very well, but I am not accusing you of anything either.  No offense was meant.  I was responding to the representation of the information in that article as fact.
 
OTOH, I have known you for a long time.  I met you years ago at this meet:
 

 

 

 

 
 
 
Quote:

Quote:

Not only is that article from a reviewer publication that has an advertisement for Beyer right after the article,  it is also a load of horse pucky.  Tyll went into it with preconceived expectations and of course he heard what he expected to hear. 
 
Our HF NJ crew was all set up to do a 600ohm Vs 250ohm DB test but since no one could hear a difference while sighted, they called off the rest of the test. 
 
Saw the graphs, read the article.  My conclusion: no audible differences.
 
It remains to be seen if Tyll's conclusions can be repeated without knowing which headphone you're listening to.
 
 
USG
 

There's this new thing called "context based advertisments" that's been going around the internet these days.

Maybe you've heard of it?

Of course, beyond that is the fact that Beyer seems to be very fond of making slight hardware revisions without telling anyone. For instance earlier in this thread Donald North measured an older 880/250 against a brand new 880/600 and found an audible difference in the treble. In the listening test you had at that meet they were audibly identical. I don't think anyone is lying. I think that manufacturing variation and silent revisions are what's behind most of this

Sorry Mav, my bad.   What I was referring to was the Company Info and the link to their site at the bottom of each page of the article. 
 
Call it what ever you like, it's an advertisement that takes up half the width of the page.
 
Second thing is that if you think "manufacturing variation and silent revisions are what's behind most of this", then what is the relevance of the comparison beyond saying that Tyll's samples seemed to behave in a certain way,  while on the other hand, yours and mine might behave and measure differently?
 

 

 
 

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

for what it's worth, although I am neither blind nor doubly so, I can hear a difference between my DT880-250 and my DT880-600. I like them both. and no, I am not feeding trolls here by trying to describe exactly what exactly the difference can be deduced from - it's a different sound, and compounded (take that, suckers) by the different cables used...
 

For the record, may I ask what differences you heard?
 
Quote:

No one is trolling, we're just asking for evidence of the claims you present.  If you can't provide an evidence based claim then expect us to take said claims with a grain of salt.
 

Agree ................  Gotta ask.
 

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

Sorry Mav, my bad.   What I was referring to was the Company Info and the link to their site at the bottom of each page of the article. 
 
Call it what ever you like, it's an advertisement that takes up half the width of the page.
 
Second thing is that if you think "manufacturing variation and silent revisions are what's behind most of this", then what is the relevance of the comparison beyond saying that Tyll's samples seemed to behave in a certain way,  while on the other hand, yours and mine might behave and measure differently?
 
 

Regarding the company info section, that (or something similar) is pretty much standard issue on corporate blogs these days.  It ain't perfect, but test gear costs money and I usually give people the benefit of the doubt until people demonstrate that they don't deserve it.
 
Regarding the possible variation of Beyer's phones I think it is likely that any on set of measurements won't mean as much as it might with other manufacturers.  I think this why no two people seem to be able to agree on exactly how they sound. We've only got the consolation that Beyer stick to a very consistent house sound (so deviations from one set of measurements will likely be minor) and the basic physics that Tyll explained in the post.  I think the basic conclusion that you should probably get the highest impedance that your amp will drive to listening volume is a good idea as well and I more or less supported it from the beginning.
 
EDIT:  I should also qualify that last statement with something along the lines of, "especially since the 600 ohm version have higher resale value and as long as new prices stay mostly equal."

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

Quote:

Regarding the company info section, that (or something similar) is pretty much standard issue on corporate blogs these days.  It ain't perfect, but test gear costs money and I usually give people the benefit of the doubt until people demonstrate that they don't deserve it.
 
Regarding the possible variation of Beyer's phones I think it is likely that any on set of measurements won't mean as much as it might with other manufacturers.  I think this why no two people seem to be able to agree on exactly how they sound. We've only got the consolation that Beyer stick to a very consistent house sound (so deviations from one set of measurements will likely be minor) and the basic physics that Tyll explained in the post.  I think the basic conclusion that you should probably get the highest impedance that your amp will drive to listening volume is a good idea as well and I more or less supported it from the beginning.
 
EDIT:  I should also qualify that last statement with something along the lines of, "especially since the 600 ohm version have higher resale value and as long as new prices stay mostly equal."

 
 
Thanks for the heads up on the corporate blog thing.
 
Giving people the benefit of the doubt is a good thing, but corporations have to be judged by their track records.
 
You want to find me a corporation that tells the truth?

 
Anyway, there's no point in talking about this any further.
 

Back on topic: 
 
You can't have it both ways.  If the deviations from one set of measurements to another are indeed minor there should be no audible differences between 880s, but on the other hand, if the deviations are large enough there will be audible differences.  And I'm not even going to mention expectation bias.
 
USG

 

[maverickronin]

 
 
Thanks for the heads up on the corporate blog thing.
 
Giving people the benefit of the doubt is a good thing, but corporations have to be judged by their track records.
 
You want to find me a corporation that tells the truth?

 
Anyway, there's no point in talking about this any further.
 

Back on topic: 
 
You can't have it both ways.  If the deviations from one set of measurements to another are indeed minor there should be no audible differences between 880s, but on the other hand, if the deviations are large enough there will be audible differences.  And I'm not even going to mention expectation bias.
 
USG

In specific I was talking about continuing to give Tyll the benefit of the doubt until or unless it becomes clear he's sold out or something. Considering this, I think its fair to say he's continuing to be objective and not bowing to the demands of big money advertisers.

On the variation between Beyers, I never said it always had to be so small it wasn't noticeable. I said the opposite, I think that's why people tend to hear differences between the 250 and the 600, especially if they come from different production runs separated by large amounts of time. It comes down to this:

1) We know that Beyer often makes small adjustment to their models without telling anyone. This is from more than just reports of something as vague as a "slightly more refined sound". There are pictures of different drivers drivers in the same '05 cup and grill among the DT800s and there are new reports of "bass heavy" DT770/600s which run against the graphs on Headroom.

2) There is a slight inherent variation between "identical" 'phones of the same model and production run due to imperfect manufacturing techniques and quality control.

My hypothesis is that these factors along with a very slight performance edge to the 600s can explain all the conflicting data without having to question anyone's honesty or testing methodology. I admit that it couldn't satisfactorily justified without some unusually candid comments from the manufacturer or a large compilation of measurements. Given the current prices I don't think it merits much worry though

 

[Armaegis]

Seriously guys? My takeaway from the article was the explanations of impedance, phase response and damping, not this hoohah that y'all are arguing about.