does wire acctually make a difference?

[GirgleMirt]

Quote:

Conclusion: If you can't hear differences with different cables, how about accepting the possibility that others can nonetheless?

Wrong conclusion...

You are presented two glasses of water. One is labeled "Tap water" the other "bottled water". You're asked to taste both and give your impressions. You do it. You taste no difference or taste some difference, it doesn't really matter. They tell you that both glasses of water were analysed and have both the same chemical composition, therefore, there is no difference to be tasted. Still, some claim they can taste differences between the water labeled "tap" and "bottled". By your conclusion, you should accept that the water is different and some can taste differences between both.

Its not much different from audio cables. Cables have been measured and the results was that the fancy cables don't differ from your average zip cord. They've even done double blind tests and the results show that they make no difference in sound. Should we blindly accept that some can hear differences between them?

It would be up to those who claim they can hear differences to come forth and prove their claims.

Two interesting article on the subject: http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#thetruth

 

[Jama211]

Two things.

Beleive it or not I have listened to this setup an incredible amount, seeing I had it for 6 months while he was overseas.

Secondly, I think if the difference is so small you can't hear the difference with this setup, then it is likely the difference is inconceivably small on higher end systems.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GirgleMirt Its not much different from audio cables. Cables have been measured and the results was that the fancy cables don't differ from your average zip cord. They've even done double blind tests and the results show that they make no difference in sound. Should we blindly accept that some can hear differences between them?

This is a DBT-free forum!

 

[bigshot]

Being able to tell a difference isn't enough.

Odds are, if you can detect a difference in sound between two cables, one of them is likely conducting less efficiently. I read online about a test done in one of the audio magazines that specifically showed that Monster Cables were both "warmer sounding" and LESS EFFICIENT than a regular old Radio Shack cable. It seems to me that if you are using inefficient cables as audio filters, there are easier, more controllable and less expensive ways of doing it.

See ya
Steve

 

[daba]

At a meet, it'd be nice to hold a DBT/BT.Would anyone in the Bay Area like to participate in such an event?

 

[GirgleMirt]

A bunch of audiophiles from around here did somekind of a speaker cable blind test, I wasn't part of it, but the results was as expected, they guessed right about 50% of the time.

But the thing is the test might change the belief of the participants, but it will do little for others. Just in this thread, more than 4 instances have been stated where in DBT or BT fancy cables were compared to your avg cable, and the results were all the same. No difference. You can't find a blind test that indicates that there are perceptible differences between an adequately made cable and a fancy audiophile cable. The data is here, its been done before, its really just that some seem to prefer to keep believing that there are differences, until they do a blind test and see for themselves that there's none, they'll just keep spreading the misconceptions...

Quote:

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing."

That couldn't be more true for cables. Many on this forum refuses to even discuss DBT, since the DBTs basically shows that there are no differences. Therefore, 'faith' that there are differences in cables remain, and is spread...

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GirgleMirt The data is here, its been done before, its really just that some seem to prefer to keep believing that there are differences, until they do a blind test and see for themselves that there's none, they'll just keep spreading the misconceptions...

There are plenty of commercial interests that are doing what they can to keep the waters muddy.

See ya
Steve

 

[tennisets]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GirgleMirt Just in this thread, more than 4 instances have been stated where in DBT or BT fancy cables were compared to your avg cable, and the results were all the same. No difference. You can't find a blind test that indicates that there are perceptible differences between an adequately made cable and a fancy audiophile cable. The data is here, its been done before, its really just that some seem to prefer to keep believing that there are differences, until they do a blind test and see for themselves that there's none, they'll just keep spreading the misconceptions...

What about the three people who have posted in this thread who have done blind tests and succeeded in telling the difference between cables (myself included)? I suppose our opinion is not valid because our tests must have been somehow flawed? I know that mine was not. If I don't know which cable is which, if someone else is doing the switching, then what's the problem?

But ah, you say, you knew when you were switching the cables because there is a hiccup in playback when you switch sources on the amp (I used a CD player with two outputs, one set of cables in each, going to different inputs on a Musical Fidelity A5 amp, which is remote switchable). But the person who was switching (who knew which cable was which, so it was not a DBT) could just as easily hit one input button then immediately go back to the original input, so there is a hiccup, but you have not switched cables. And the person did this. And I could tell when he did in fact switch. I've done multiple test like this, and I can always guess which cable is which, or describe the sonic differences accurately if I don't know what the cables are.

I don't care what anyone else says; I know I can hear the difference between cables, and that's good enough for me.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennisets I don't care what anyone else says; I know I can hear the difference between cables, and that's good enough for me.

I would like to hear something like that from the perspective of a cable skeptic: «I don't hear a difference between cables, so I can save a lot of money.» Instead of claiming universal validity for their own perception.

 

[GirgleMirt]

Was the guage and length of both cables identical? If not, was the volume matched with a meter? If one of your cables was borked and altered the signal, then it was not a working cable and it should be replaced by a Radio-Shack cable or another properly built cable, and then the test should be reconducted between the Rat Shack and the other 'neutral' cable.

If it was the borked cable that was preferred, then be happy and thankful that you found a broken cable that sounds better than a properly built cable to you...

Of course again if you put a bigass 2000$, 8 guage speaker wire vs a 24 guage zip cord, of course you'll hear differences. The pretense is not that all cables are equal and will 'sound' the same, but that a properly built cable will not offer you the same performance as a super expensive psychosomatic cable.

[dit] Quote:

I would like to hear something like that from the perspective of a cable skeptic: «I don't hear a difference between cables, so I can save a lot of money.» Instead of claiming universal validity for their own perception.

Saying that you can't/don't hear differences in cables would imply that there are indeed differences to be heard. Besides, the point is that if there are no measurable differences between two cables, they will 'sound' the same. To imply that you rely on imperfect senses instead of looking at hard data would be an opening to cable enthousiasts: "Well you can't hear differences BECAUSE YOUR GEAR SUCKS!!" or "BECAUSE YOU'RE DEAF!!" or "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT TO LISTEN FOR!!!" etc...

Anyhow, I hate to have to use the word 'sound' when describing cables, cables don't have sound... They just transmit the electrical signal, either they transmit it accurately, or they're broken/unfit for the application...

 

[dk123]

A good example of things which can you you really go What is optical illusions: http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/index.html. Once you realise how easy your brain can get fooled, you start looking differently at DAC upgrades, cable upgrades, IC upgrades, etc..
QUOTE]

While this is an interesting link, I think there is a flaw in using this as an example of sensory illusion and how it affects listening experiences. (I have no opinion whatsoever on the whole cable debate, as I've never tried a high end cable, and don't have a high-end system.)

Anyway, I think it's important to note that in those optical illusions, the viewer IS seeing the illusion--it is totaly real to them, as a result of various biological phenomena. While the viewer is seeing something that is not actually happening, it doesn't matter, because it is being perceived by the viewer as real.

 

[GirgleMirt]

So what would be the flaw?

Quote:

Anyway, I think it's important to note that in those optical illusions, the viewer IS seeing the illusion--it is totaly real to them, as a result of various biological phenomena. While the viewer is seeing something that is not actually happening, it doesn't matter, because it is being perceived by the viewer as real.

You've just described the placebo effect, and its exactly what affects people judgements while thinking they are hearing differences... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_effect for example.
Quote:

Placebo-controlled studies It was reported that typically about a quarter of patients who were administered a placebo medication, e.g. against back pain, report a relief or diminution. Remarkably, it was reported that not only did the patients report improvement, but that the improvements were often objectively measurable, and that the same improvements typically were not observed in patients who did not receive the placebo. Because of this effect, government regulatory agencies approve new drugs only after tests establish not only that patients respond to them, but also that their effect is greater than that of a placebo (by way of affecting more patients, by affecting responders more strongly or both). Such a test or clinical trial is called a placebo-controlled study. Because a doctor's belief in the value of a treatment can affect his behaviour, and thus what his or her patient believes, such trials are usually conducted in "double-blind" fashion: that is, not only are the patients made unaware when they are receiving a placebo, the doctors are made unaware too. Recently, it has even been shown that "mock" surgery can have similar effects, and so some surgical techniques must be studied with placebo controls (rarely double blind, for obvious reasons).

In that same sens, people really think that changing the cables made a clear difference, when in fact there was no difference... They'll probably perceive new details, more air, more layers, etc..

Optical illusions aren't that far off IMHO. You think you see something moving, when its not, or see different colors when they're the same... Might the flaw be that no one is really benefiting from optical illusions?

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GirgleMirt Saying that you can't/don't hear differences in cables would imply that there are indeed differences to be heard.

No, why should it? It would just avoid a categorical statement such as «Decent cables all sound identical, and all perceived differences are imagined.»

Quote:

Besides, the point is that if there are no measurable differences between two cables, they will 'sound' the same.

...whereas this -- again -- is a categorical, generalizing statement.

 

[GirgleMirt]

Quote:

No, why should it? It would just avoid a categorical statement such as «Decent cables all sound identical, and all perceived differences are imagined.»

But they are, the whole point is there's no point in paying hundreds of dollars for something you can get which will cost you a few 10 dollar bills... Because theire performances are the same!

Quote:

Besides, the point is that if there are no measurable differences between two cables, they will 'sound' the same.

Quote:

...whereas this -- again -- is a categorical, generalizing statement.

how so?

Given a standard 30$ cable with a given guage, and given an audiophile cable of equal length and guage costing ten times more, you'll get the same performance. Reduce the length of the 30$ cable, and it'll outperform the audiophile cable...

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GirgleMirt how so?

Well, the only thing you can credibly report is that they sound the same to you, whereas to me they might make a difference.