[Gandah]

  Anyone with expensive USB cable willing to do an experiment?  Take a direct out recording from your DAC with stock cable.  Switch out the USB cable and repeat.  You can then use Audacity to create a 180 phase copy which you sum against the 1st recording leaving only differences..  Any change in SQ should then clearly be audible and visualized.  See article  http://sdk.bongiovidps.com/2013/09/26/audio-null-test/

Just do what I did, grab all your A to B usb cables you have in your house try them all and see for yourself. you don't need an expensive cable to notice differences

 

[drez]

  Anyone with expensive USB cable willing to do an experiment?  Take a direct out recording from your DAC with stock cable.  Switch out the USB cable and repeat.  You can then use Audacity to create a 180 phase copy which you sum against the 1st recording leaving only differences..  Any change in SQ should then clearly be audible and visualized.  See article  http://sdk.bongiovidps.com/2013/09/26/audio-null-test/

Methodology has ben used before with what I consider to be known quantities (JRiver and JPlay) and shown inconclusive results.  I don't hold much hope for this showing evidence of USB cable differences.  I don't currently use JPlay but to me it sounds pretty clearly different (if not necessarily better).
 
IMO ears are better test instruments, even if one considers the squishy thing in between the weak point.  Listen, and if there is a clear difference, rinse and repeat.  If there is no clear difference call quits and forget about it.  Much less time consuming, and for our purposes all we should need.  Hifi is a matter of taste and preference, so you have to trust your ears to tell you what they like.  Common sense can take care of rationalising what the ears hear into decision making.

 

[WHertz]

I have an Ayre QB-9 DAC, Bryston Amp, Threshold Preamp, and B&W Speakers. My question is, does the USB cable I use matter.

I am considering a Transparent Audio Performance USB Cable, but I don't want to spend the extra coin unless someone can confirm there is a difference.

 
 
Digital is digital. USB cables work or they don't - and then they are mechanically broken. Period.
 
The same goes for any audio cable. As long as the copper molecules have connection (and they do on EVERY wire), electrons will find their way from one end to another.
 
When I started with HiFi in the seventies, there was NO (ZERO) cable discussion. And even the most sophisticated amps and devices (say: Accuphase, Luxman, Studer / Revox...or Klein + Hummel) were driven through 'cheap' cables. I know a lot of recording studios from the inside...there is not a single one with 'hi-end'-cables. All you need is proper shielding and mechanically reliable connectors.

 

[Gandah]

Testing different usb cables for yourself is really the only way you will find out for sure to see if one usb cable sounds different to another... there are two equal sides of opinion here to say one is right or one is wrong, so why not do a little testing, can't hurt if you have a few cables lying around

 

[castleofargh]

it doesn't change the fact that if there really is audible difference, one of the 2 cables was probably defective as a usb cable. having a less than 1.5meters cable able to make enough jitter to actually change the way the DAC will deal with the signal, it has to be something.
I'll try to measure "something" when I have the time, but for me to read anything, it has to be worst than my laptop's mic in as I don't have a line in. so don't expect anything and you shall not be disappointed ^_^.
maybe I'll get a proper soundcard one day just to play around with measurements and bad RMAA...
 
I remember the ESS guy saying that they had special tricks for sound and that when jitter became too high, all it would do is make a sabre chip sound just like any other chip under the same jitter.
that could explain 2 sounds at some point, but still what values of jitter can a short cable really add?
do you guys live near a cyclotron, a leaking nuclear plant or 10 phone antennas? maybe we should look for shielding more than actual signal transmission?

 

[drez]

Regarding the "why" of usb hifi cables my advice is that approaching the problem from a basis of prior knowledge about usb protocol, aynchronous transfers or jitter is best left to the people who design the better USB DAC and transports. Even if you have digital inputs which are "jitter immune" the quality of the incoming signal seems to matter. The best explanation I have read is that digital receivers must do "work" to lock onto an incoming signal. The more work the receiver has to do, the more electrical noise is generated. So while the jitter measures the same, the noise Is different.

This might seem like splitting hairs and it kind of is. USB cables should not be the main priority. Something like Schiit Wyrd would be much more effective way to improve USB signal integrity for most people.

 

[WHertz]

Don't forget: We're in the range between 20 Hz and 20 kHz. Jitter is a quantite negligeable there.
 
Again': Either an USB cable works or it doesn't. The cheapest will 'sound' as good as the most expensive: USB cables don't 'sound' at all...how should they? 

 

[BirdManOfCT]

   
 
Digital is digital. USB cables work or they don't - and then they are mechanically broken. Period.
 
The same goes for any audio cable. As long as the copper molecules have connection (and they do on EVERY wire), electrons will find their way from one end to another.
 
When I started with HiFi in the seventies, there was NO (ZERO) cable discussion. And even the most sophisticated amps and devices (say: Accuphase, Luxman, Studer / Revox...or Klein + Hummel) were driven through 'cheap' cables. I know a lot of recording studios from the inside...there is not a single one with 'hi-end'-cables. All you need is proper shielding and mechanically reliable connectors.

Not true about audio cable -- under some conditions. Twenty years ago we had similar discussions. With my high-end system at the time, I could tell differences (although cable blind testing was hard to do). Then, the kicker, I was able to show data to support it. It made sense. Nay-sayers weren't thinking, just blindly following their mantra that there's no difference.
 
Will you be able to tell the difference with all levels of systems? Of course not. Even some high-end systems may be hard to discern differences, depending on the electrical load/interaction.
 
Anyone who blindly follows a mantra, one way or the other, is no longer dealing in science. Be open to possibilities.

 

[wolfwalker78]

If one can hear a difference, one can measure a difference.
It's actually usually the opposite, human beings have really crappy hearing at the best of times.
Anything else is faith and emotion. 

 

[BirdManOfCT]

  If one can hear a difference, one can measure a difference.
It's actually usually the opposite, human beings have really crappy hearing at the best of times.
Anything else is faith and emotion. 

You read my post, right?
 
Lots of times, the measuring ability lags reality. And don't forget the observer effect.

 

[wolfwalker78]

The measuring ability of the range of sound able to be perceived by the human ear/brain does not lag in 2014.
Even if it did, then it'd be admitting the folks making these high end cables were shooting in the dark to put it kindly.
Sorry, my body of knowledge and experience as a technician and scientist demands that I disagree. 
The up side is in this case I'm just some jerkoff on the internet who's views don't matter so be of good cheer if you're sure I'm wrong.

 

[castleofargh]

I disagree with "you need high end gear to hear a difference". high end gear should be reliable machines that wouldn't be thrown off by a stupid 1meter usb cable. if you tell me that crap gears are already so far into nonlinearity that even a cable can make the last push into an audible mess. there I will believe you and understand.
 
also the wyrd box .... when did adding several clocks and buffers in chain become an audiophile thing? I'm always amazed how mentalities can be molded to fit propaganda(not originating from shiit guys, that's the sadest thing. they actually don't pretend anything). my headphone cable is 1.2meters and my amp isn't under 1ohm, maybe I should use a second amp in series for such a long distance? that will give me great sound right, and it not like I could just get the right amp instead... oh wait!
it makes no sense to use those magic boxes unless you're dead in love with a bad DAC(weird but hey people are free). if a DAC can't deal with bad usb power coming from the computer, then why was it built to be usb powered in the first place? ever though about that? if the buffer inside a DAC is so bad that you need 2 other clocks before it(computer and wyrd) to keep the signal on track, then that DAC is crap. even ok adaptive USB should deal with most of this, and I won't even talk about real asynchronous.
it's pretty simple to understand right? you don't turn a defective part by adding more of it. you just change the defective part.
 
 
 
 
back to cables:
I RMAA 2 of my usb cables on the odac yesterday. my very random and usual usb cable, the kind you all have from somewhere. and the cable from a sansa clip+, here is a pic for those not familiar with it:

as you can see it's hard to find shorter, and it has a ferrite stuff so a good chance the impedance would go up and maybe noise would change?
 
my results were within 0.1DB for both cables in dynamic, noise, and THD and the rest stayed unchanged. doing the same cable 5times also made differences withing 0.1DB so I can't really say I find this to be conclusive of any kind of difference. now as I said before I don't even have a proper line in, so my laptop might very well be hiding some differences under a pile of noise and distortion.(still most stuff was around -80db so I doubt something buried below would make a significant and audible change).
now on the fun side, unplugging my ethernet cable made my IMD values to be cut in half ^_^... can't say if real or one of those RMAA bug that make us all be so suspicious about it, but I found it fun to have "measurable" changes(whatever the real reason) from unplugging my ethernet and not from switching USB cables.
 
maybe someone with a real sound card could try too, and maybe record a song with both usb cables and check how different they are in audacity or whatever(that would also show if there was some very amazing jitter value changing the amplitude or phase of the signal(but it would have to be pretty massive I guess, certainly not something a passive cable could do). I'll see if I can get something  and try another DAC and maybe another cable (I want to believe, but it doesn't look good).

 

[tarnumf]

Measuring USB cable is rather easy - copy some data by using it and if single bit changed then just throw away that cable and get the good one.

 

[wolfwalker78]

Simple md5sum check should do it.
Or this.

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/04/measurements-usb-cables-for-dacs.html?m=1


I'm all for a person spending money and helping support the economy and such though, especially when it's money to
people doing audio stuff. Just the other day I bought an Amazon Fire TV dealy to replace my old Roku so I could use one of
the optical inputs on my Kanto YU5's and free up the last analog input for a transient device. I had an HDMI cable and an old
optical cable, but I bought a nice braided and steel ended optical and a gold plated braided HDMI. They are quite well made, good
material, clean solder, etc. They were about $6 each. Go go China.

 

[drez]

I don't doubt that there should be no difference between USB cables, and that jitter should be inaudible (actually in the case of asynchronous USB the jitter is typically the same unless you have dropouts) and that digital audio should be perfect.
 
Also we can make RMAA showing no conclusive difference and this might support our expectations.
 
Again it's fine if you wan't to approach this hobby from this philosophy, I won't try and stop you.  However my experience has led me to believe that there is something missing with both these expectations as well as measurements, but I don't expect or even recommend anyone else to take my subjective opinion as gospel.  I do however recommend listening as well as predicting and measuring.