[sixty9]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif You need the Apple lossless (ALAC) plug-in ! Download foobar2000 and optional components

Hi Nick, I've listened to both tests and admit i don't hear any difference. It's kinda like when i try to A/B different coax cables.. can't really hear a diff.

However, from my own experience i know that i have heard differences with the following:
-ebay glass toslink vs nordost toslink (prefer nordost)
-toslink vs coax (prefer toslink)
-wadia itransport vs pc (prefer pc)
-pc alone vs pc w/ monarchy dip reclocker (prefer pc alone)

I do believe some of these tests might involve factors other than jitter (emi/rfi contamination).

I must admit i am suspicious if artificially simulated jitter has the same effect as genuine jitter. As well, i wonder if the outcome of the test were different if samples of the entire song were included. As i had written in a previous post, I recommended listening to the system for a whole week before switching back. It's not always about what you hear in the short term.

 

[sixty9]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plonter /img/forum/go_quote.gif By all the commenta made here, the conclusion so far is that the transport isn't that matters! that's what i thought in the beginning. i do not deny the jitter,only saying that it's non relative to our ears.

As i had suggested from the beginning, the transport is not your weakest link on your system. Think about jitter as the icing on the cake. You'll get more bang out of you buck from other upgrades.

I also stand by my suggestion that isolating the vibrations on your dac will lead to a sonic improvement.

If i might stick my neck out, the cheapest upgrade i've done that has provided the most significant impact on sound are fuses. SPecifically furutech fuses (~$40) have cause an unbelievable impact to both my dac and my amp. I've tried others (hi-tech, isoclean) but the impact was not as noticeable. But i'm not really one to justify to skeptics what i hear is not psychological so feel free to ignore this suggestion.

 

[sixty9]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixty9 /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's not always about what you hear in the short term.

To explain this further. SInce the samples are only 46 seconds long, my ears don't get to recover from the previous track. For instance, if the 1st track causes nervousness which irratates my ears, even if the 2nd track doesn't have that nervousness, my ears are still sensitive to it and i might wrongly attribute that nervousness to the 2nd track as well.

It's kinda like doing vodka blind taste tests.. after the 1st round, all you taste is alcohol.. the vodka's stay with you and your ability to differentiate flavours is reduced..

 

[potter]

I would like to know the opinion of SACD player owner (i own a McIntosh MCD500.)
Also, a comment about the jitter article published on Stereophile magazine.
(i own the new Cyrus transport and i'm agree with the opinion of the producer.)

 

[plonter]

would someone care to explain what exactly causes the differences in sound between one transport and the other..? i still didn't get it.
in the end,they are all(the transports) transferring the digital bits,the 1's and 0's, into the dac....that's all. so what causes the sound differences (if there are any..and people said that they heard a difference).
is it the jitter...? altough i can't see how it's related to the whole sound signature.

by the way...is there a way that i can measure jitter on my dvd transport? how do you measure jitter anyway..?(what's the term used for it?)

thanks guys. and sorry if i ask too many questions, i am very curious man!

 

[pcf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plonter /img/forum/go_quote.gif would someone care to explain what exactly causes the differences in sound between one transport and the other..? i still didn't get it. in the end,they are all(the transports) transferring the digital bits,the 1's and 0's, into the dac....that's all. so what causes the sound differences (if there are any..and people said that they heard a difference). is it the jitter...? altough i can't see how it's related to the whole sound signature. by the way...is there a way that i can measure jitter on my dvd transport? hoe do you measure jitter anyway..?(what's the term used for it?) thanks guys. and sorry if i ask too many questions, i am very curious man!

Maybe some other technically minded members can answer that. I guess it's down to how well the 1's and 9's are read from the disc and tranferred to the DAC.. I just find it fascinating how transports can come in so many shapes and forms. In my Meridian 500, EJECT brings the whole transport forward; I used to have one of those Pioneer "legato link" cd player that reads cds upside down; Some transports are top loading. And of course we had all the debates about whether separating the transport and dac is the right way to go ...
In both of my 2 channel and home cinema systems, I route all my digitals sources( cd transports; Apple TV; itransport;squeeze box; tv..) to the DACs. I honestly cannot tell the difference between music coming from a cd transport and an ipod. Maybe there is but I just can't be bothered anymore. I want to listen to the music.

 

[ADD]

This is a very interesting thread and although I cannot contribute anything scientific, I am at this very moment listening to two different transports running simultaneously into my newly acquired DACMagic and both playing exactly the same source material. Both the transports do indeed sound different!

The first transport (plugged into Digital 1 on the DACMagic) is my Sony PCM D50. This is memory-stick based professional field recorder and it is connected via the optical connector.

The second transport is Mum's old Panasonic DMR-EX77 DVD recorder. I have it connected to Digital 2 on the DACMagic via the exact same make and model of optical cable. The only difference is that this one has toslink at both ends, whereas the cable for the Sony has an optical mini at the Sony end.

My test files are 24-96 downloads. I simply copied them to the memory stick on the Sony and then burned a DVD video at 24-96 using DVD Audio Maker for the Panasonic. The Pansonic is configured to pass the digital out un-resampled and this is confirmed via the display on the DACMagic.

The differences I am noticing are this:

The Sony has a more organic and smoother sounding midrange and is a little softer round the edges on transients, but in a "good" way (a bit like vinyl as compared to CD). The imaging on the Sony (front to back) is slightly better. There seems to be more detail from the Sony as well, especially noticable in the xylophone solo near the end of Respighi's "The Birds" - you can hear the stick hitting the keys ( as opposed to the actual resonance of the keys themselves) more clearly with the Sony.

The Panasonic has a harder sounding midrange and more etched treble, but the notes seem somehow to gush forth more freely from the Panasonic. The attacks on transients seem to be punchier on the Panasonic too.

I honestly don't know which is actually better sounding nor which is more "accurate". I need to do much longer term listening, but I suspect the Panasonic might be more fatiguing. In a nutshell, the Sony / DACmagic combination remind me more of good vinyl, whereas the Pansonic / DACMagic combination seem to be more "digital" for serious want of a better word lol.

I really don't know why these two transports should sound different, but they do and the difference is enough that I think most people would hear it if they listened critically.

I also plugged the DACMagic into the optical output from my Xonar Essence and got yet a different result. It sounded different again to the other two. But I have to discount that third test, as I can never be precisely sure what windows or the playback software (Plogue Bidule) might be doing, even with ASIO drivers and sample rates specifically set to avoid any resampling or re-quantisation.

 

[JaZZ]

When I had my Theta Pro basic II DAC years ago, I tried different transports with it. The Audiolab 8000CDM which replaced my then Sony X-777 sounded a bit less colorful, but more organic and defined. A Theta basic transport which I tried in between sounded clearer and leaner, but also sleeker and less organic, more technical. Then the (defective) Theta DAC was replaced with the Bel Canto DAC2, which offered better detail and a more organic sound (couldn't compare them directly, though). With a Philips DVD 963 SA it sounded much more detailed, airier and more transparent than with the Audiolab which sounded dull and muffled in comparison. The McCormack UDP-1 feeding the Bel Canto altered the sound again, made it more organic and colorful, without sacrificing detail, but the difference was not night and day.

So my experience tells me that transports indeed make a sonic difference. I'm no digital expert, but the only cause I can imagine is jitter, or its specific spectrum, resp.
.

 

[ADD]

Well I downloaded those jitter test files, and before I knew which was which, I thought number 2 immediately sounded better than the others. I then decided to do a blind test and was going fine, but after about ten minutes listening I began to make mistakes and could no longer differentiate between number 2 and the others. So I don't know - I guess hearing fatigue sets in and then there is the pressure of a blind test versus listening with no pressure. Or maybe it is all psychological and I am hearing a difference because expected to hear one.

What I did hear when my ears were fresh was the guitar sounding slightly more steely and clangy on 3 and 5, but more organic and smooth on number 2. But I failed to keep hearing this the longer I listened.

Whatever, this Panasonic and Sony sound different to each other, but only if I A/B then with instant swapping. After 5 minutes with just one, I could not tell you which transport I am hearing anymore.

I think this gets down to what some experts say - forget about A/B testing and trying to strain to hear differences. Instead just live with one for a couple of weeks and then the other for a couple of weeks. Then see if you feel one is better to live with.

I think this is what I will do. The Sony has the advantage of battery power, completely solid state and most likely an incredibly long service life - probably decades. Downside is the cost of the memory if I you don't want to be copying files every time you want to hear something.

The Panasonic has the advantage of the blank DVD disks costing less than $2 each. It does seem to sound attractive when I fire it up after having not listened for a day too - but this gets down to living with each for a decent period of time.

DVD transports in general (not just the Panasonic) have the disadvantage of being a mechanical device which will wear out (often surprisingly quickly), there is the issue of laser life, mechanism precision over the life of the unit, the size of the unit (won't really fit on a bookshelf) and mains power (maybe bad).

If I did go the DVD transport route, I would probably get something like Cambridge's DVD99, since the Panasonic is actually meant for my TV setup.

 

[ADD]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plonter /img/forum/go_quote.gif by the way...is there a way that i can measure jitter on my dvd transport?

I would like to know as well. Nick, you quoted figures for your own gear. How did you get those figures?

 

[haloxt]

That is exactly why I scoff at so-called objective DBT hearing tests, they don't consider the effect of emotions on hearing. One of the best examples of sensory organs being negative impacted by emotional state is reading Snellen test cards while under pressure or duress. The more you strain at anything the more it evades you because you are in essence telling your body that something is wrong and must be somehow gotten rid of. Just listening and letting things come to you, whether it comes or not and letting go of expectations and stop getting angry at not hearing a difference or (in the case of anti-cablers swinging the bludgeon of objective science) hearing a difference, is the best way to subjectively critique audio equipment.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADD /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would like to know as well. Nick, you quoted figures for your own gear. How did you get those figures?

The figure for the Marantz was based on similar Marantz's which typically do not do well for jitter - there was a test of one on TNT which was about 687ps, but mine could be 200 ps or so either way. The Entech figure (157ps) was measured by Stereophile. It is very rare for any device to have more than 1ns, but there are a few bad boys such as the oppo(4ns) and the McIntosh media server(14ns). Most devices run between 100ps and 500ps.

However as Bob Adams (Analog Devices) suggests high jitter devices will also show high levels of Noise and Distortion so even if you cannot measure it directly you can predict it to some extent.

In fact if you look at the jitter measurements that Stereophile does and the noise/distortion measurements the correlation is very strong.

 

[IPodPJ]

OP,
Yes, the transport matters. But sometimes it matters a lot less than others, it all depends on what you've got in your system. There are two primary things that I've found to be the most important factors:

#1- most important) how good the clock is in your DAC, i.e. will it reclock the signal and end up with a lower level of jitter than the transport is feeding it? If the clock reclocks to extremely low levels of jitter, it will be very hard to even notice the difference between coax and optical cables. (My DAC's Superclock-4S reclocks to less than 2ps of jitter)

#2) second most important- How good are the power supplies in your transport and DAC? The better the power supply, the better the audio quality. Consistent voltage regulation and clean power are vital to the optimal performance of your system.

 

[plonter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by IPodPJ /img/forum/go_quote.gif OP, Yes, the transport matters. But sometimes it matters a lot less than others, it all depends on what you've got in your system. There are two primary things that I've found to be the most important factors: #1- most important) how good the clock is in your DAC, i.e. will it reclock the signal and end up with a lower level of jitter than the transport is feeding it? If the clock reclocks to extremely low levels of jitter, it will be very hard to even notice the difference between coax and optical cables. (My DAC's Superclock-4S reclocks to less than 2ps of jitter) #2) second most important- How good are the power supplies in your transport and DAC? The better the power supply, the better the audio quality. Consistent voltage regulation and clean power are vital to the optimal performance of your system.

thanks for all the comment guys, and in fact i was really expecting those answers from the begining, because my logic tells me that there should be a difference between different dransport, why? i still don't know what exactly makes the differences(jitter is the only logical conclusion).

IpodPj, i dont know for sure...but my ultra micro dac should be very high quality(reclocking with "jitterless" output and everything...), at least that what headroom say

and i also upgraded recently my power supplies. i also use a high quality interconnect cables in my rig.

i am very curious what will other cd players will sound in my system, but the problem is i can't never try it, only if i buy one. and i don't know if it's worth it. i don't want to invest a 500-700 dollar on a "high end" cd player and get the same results as my cheap pioneer dvd.

the sound is really increadible as it is, but you know how it is...we are always looking for improvements! and i thought that maybe a more professional and dedicated cd player (not like dvd that supposed to play also movies!) will sound better,even if it's subtle than it is worth it.

 

[Drosera]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plonter /img/forum/go_quote.gif thanks for all the comment guys, and in fact i was really expecting those answers from the begining, because my logic tells me that there should be a difference between different dransport, why? i still don't know what exactly makes the differences(jitter is the only logical conclusion).

My feeling is that there is way too much focus on jitter in this thread. Sure, it's a very important component. But how an optical transport sounds will also heavily depend on simply how well the disc is read and the subsequent "error correction" and "error concealment" the cd player has to do to repair missing data. And particularly the latter proces will lead to significant degradation of the data. Remember, all this stuff is taking place in real-time, no time to do rechecks like the optical disc transports and harddisks in your computer do.

Then there's the stable and interference-free transmission of the data and finally the S/PDIF conversion for output.

All sorts of things can go wrong in any of these areas and usually they do (in varying amounts).

However (to the OP), I don't think there's real good advice to give here. It's possible that a better transport (such as an older cd player with a CDM4 or Pioneer Stable Platter transport, or perhaps the new Little Dot transport) will give you an improvement. Perhaps even a quite noticeable improvement, if your current transport is proven to be very bad. But most likely any improvement will actually be quite subtle. It's only with a more expensive DAC that I would really start to worry about transport quality.