[maverickronin]

Quote:

The Behringer UCA202 is a mere $30 - while not of the very highest quality its ADC section has a resolution (term used correctly here

 ) of about 16 bits, certainly it is good enough to show up any significant (i.e night and day) differences. The incipient error is about +/- 1  LSB or 1 part in 65K (give or take) it is certainly good enough to show up the differences in CD player analog outputs - I used to it show a consistent (over 10 trials each) difference in three CD players of my own and even (the far smaller differences) between cables.
 
Diffmaker is great but the alignment routine is not always spot on - with several different versions it has given me differences between two copies of the same file so I'd check that it does not give false positives first.

I suppose I'll check that out when my finances recover.  They're pretty dire ATM.
 

 

[mrspeakers]

Quote:

I love debates with sane people 

 
@mrspeakers: I'm sticking to DACs for the moment, where load is not so much of an issue. With amplifiers, obviously the load can affect the sound, but in a well designed amp I don't think it should. The AMB M^3 measures uniformly well into a variety of headphone impedances, for example.
 
 

Totally doesn't matter if an amp is "well designed."  It's a mathematical function.  I don't know what "uniformly well" means or how it is measured but the real issue is that amps and phones (or speakers) should have a high ratio of load to source impedance (>10 if you can) to miniimize frequency response aberrations.  
 
The other issue about stuff that's -45dB down is exactly the kind of levels of micro detail in ambience and high harmonics, it's also the type of sound that gets lost in lossy compression, so if the source material is lossy, then there's not enough data for a better amp to resolve, period.
 
Lastly, DACs do have a number of measurable differences.  The assumption here is "they're all so good it doesn't matter" is absolutely wrong. Any number of 24-bit DACs can't resolve more than 14 bits accurately, and only a few get to 20 bits.  Plus, the algorithms used to create the inverse cosine function are not the same, so they will show different results in passing impulses or square waves, ergo they absolutely will have differences resolving lower level details (and btw they often have minor imbalances between channels, let alone variances across chips).
 
My biggest issue with the thread are the huge assumptions and assertions made, and the "if you can null it that's all that matters."  That's only one factor, though a big one.  As I said, I use this as one test in my design work.  
 
 
 

 

[upstateguy]

 
Quote:

If everything else sounds basically the same and just the one amp sounds different, that amp must be doing some sort of processing to deliberately make it sound different. Maybe it's monkeying with the phase. I don't think a headphone amp would incorporate a digital delay, but that would sound very much like what you describe too. In any case, the amp you like is probably the one that isn't performing to spec. If you like it that way, it doesn't matter though.

Have you done direct line level matched A/B comparison? That would probably help you define exactly what the difference is. It would be easier to figure out if your description wasn't so vague. I suspect that the phase/time shifting you're describing doesn't really exist, and some other more common problem is just giving you that impression.

The GS-1 is a straight Kevin Gilmore designed, wire with gain, transistor amp.....   and it's been made by the DIY crowd for years in different configurations... Dynalo, Dynahi etc. and I'm pretty sure the schematic is public.
 
I don't feel like it's doing any processing, it just has more 'resolution' than the others.
 
I've only compared the HP outs from each of the amps.  But I've done it frequently and for years.
 
Another HFer, Asr, reviewed the GS-1 a few years ago and referred to what I'm trying to describe as "holographic."
 
It certainly could be described like that, but to me it sounds like it's playing in a larger room than the other amps I have.
 


Quote:

Just to say, when a difference is nulled out and recorded in Audacity, the fact you have to turn it up to max volume to hear it - and that is when the difference is isolated into a result track - implies that the difference is probably inaudible under normal usage; but I do find the -45db difference very interesting - it is unfortunate that a more detailed investigation, (investigating the effect of the voltage fed to the opamps for example) will likely never be performed. These are both very high-end opamps - I will PM Ti on his forums to see if I can get more info, he's usually extraordinarily helpful as you well know.
And the Woo3 is a tube amp - we KNOW tube amps have giant measurable differences versus SS, so I find it especially interesting that you declare they sound incredibly similar (Woo and M^3). Assuming the M^3 does not actually measure strangely for a SS amp, which I find very unlikely...hmm, will ask Mr Kan.
 
However, the Woo3 is a relatively high-end tube amps, and tube amps can still have inaudible levels of distortion and so on when well designed - my immediate reaction is to wonder what the GS-1 is doing to the sound - but speculation isn't particularly fruitful - it could be much higher than advertised crosstalk - crosstalk is rarely perceived in small amounts (well, small in the sense of audible, but not blatantly obviously audible within a second of listening) as a degradation and can have all the effects on the sound stage you spoke of. Faced with a larger subjective soundstage, it can be easier to isolate details - but this is a lot of speculation here. AFAIK the GS-1 has never ended up being measured.

In my experience, I have found the Woo amps not to be very tuby and sound pretty much like good SS amps, so I wasn't surprised not to hear a big difference between the 637/627 M^3 and the Cetron tubed Woo3.
 
my immediate reaction is to wonder what the GS-1 is doing to the sound .....
 
It sounds like a clearer version of the same thing played in a larger room.  Not an echo or cavernous sound, just like there is more space all around.
 

 

[tvrboy]

 
"resolution"   Listen to a low bit rate mp3 like 128.  That's low resolution.  Now listen to a wav file.  That's higher resolution.  Of the 3 amps I use the GS-1 has a noticeably higher resolution than the M^3, which has a slightly higher resolution than the Woo3.
 
Cleaner,clearer, crisper, bass and treble.

Considering the Woo 3 has no output transformer (and thus relatively high impedance and low damping factor), I think the difference you hear between the Woo and your other 2 amps is easily explainable.
 

 

[bigshot]

not an echo or cavernous sound, just like there is more space all around.

I have no idea what that means. More dynamic? Lower noise floor? How do you hear space around sounds?

 

[maverickronin]

I'd take it as having less distortion masking ambient and psycho-acoustic cues but describing what you hear in terms of measurements isn't always the easiest task.

 

[bigshot]

It is easy if you think of sound using specific criteria instead of analogies. I completely believe that there might be a DAC with a totally unique set of specs that produces a different sort of sound that appeals to some people. Distortion, like the distortion that occurs in tube amps is a likely candidate. I wouldn't be able to use something like that is my system, but I know some people look for different sorts of things in sound.

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

I have no idea what that means. More dynamic? Lower noise floor? How do you hear space around sounds?

It's not easy to describe because I've always been a numbers guy.  All I can say is that the GS-1 sounds like it's playing in a larger room.
 
Maybe it's related to sound stage, but I don't have a clue what it is or what's causing it.  As I said before, when Asr reviewed it, he called what I heard "holographic".
 
On the other hand, if you've listened to some portable mp3 players, they can do the opposite.  Things get closed in and the room gets smaller.  Have you ever heard that?
 
 
 
Quote:

It is easy if you think of sound using specific criteria instead of analogies. I completely believe that there might be a DAC with a totally unique set of specs that produces a different sort of sound that appeals to some people. Distortion, like the distortion that occurs in tube amps is a likely candidate. I wouldn't be able to use something like that is my system, but I know some people look for different sorts of things in sound.

 
Its not the sound that's different, it's the space the sound is in, like with angled driver headphones....
 

 

[Willakan]

And the subjective space that the sound is in cannot be separated as something discrete from the sound - it is just your mind's spatial interpretation of the sound. By "My immediate reaction is to wonder what the GS-1 is doing to the sound" I meant not to say that I don't understand your description of the subjective differences in audio quality, but to say that I suspect it is modifying the original signal, perhaps unintentionally, in some way as to yield a subjective improvement - rather like a tube amp with relatively high distortion (although the comparison is far from perfect). There are measurable things that affect the "sound stage" in vaguely predictable ways.

 

[bigshot]

All I can say is that the GS-1 sounds like it's playing in a larger room. Maybe it's related to sound stage, but I don't have a clue what it is or what's causing it.  As I said before, when Asr reviewed it, he called what I heard "holographic".

it's the space the sound is in, like with angled driver headphones.

Angled drivers are mechanically pointing at a different part of your ear. That isn't possible with an amp. Sound stage is largely created in the mixing of the music, not the equipment reproducing it. But it can be affected by time shifts (reverb) and phase problems (cancellation).

Is the effect consistent across all music, or does it affect some music more than others?

 

[upstateguy]

 
Quote:

If everything else sounds basically the same and just the one amp sounds different, that amp must be doing some sort of processing to deliberately make it sound different. Maybe it's monkeying with the phase. I don't think a headphone amp would incorporate a digital delay, but that would sound very much like what you describe too. In any case, the amp you like is probably the one that isn't performing to spec. If you like it that way, it doesn't matter though.

Have you done direct line level matched A/B comparison? That would probably help you define exactly what the difference is. It would be easier to figure out if your description wasn't so vague. I suspect that the phase/time shifting you're describing doesn't really exist, and some other more common problem is just giving you that impression.

The GS-1 is a straight Kevin Gilmore designed, wire with gain, transistor amp.....   and it's been made by the DIY crowd for years in different configurations... Dynalo, Dynahi etc. and I'm pretty sure the schematic is public.
 
I don't feel like it's doing any processing, it just has more 'resolution' than the others.
 
I've only compared the HP outs from each of the amps.  But I've done it frequently and for years.
 
Another HFer, Asr, reviewed the GS-1 a few years ago and referred to what I'm trying to describe as "holographic."
 
It certainly could be described like that, but to me it sounds like it's playing in a larger room than the other amps I have.
 


Quote:

Just to say, when a difference is nulled out and recorded in Audacity, the fact you have to turn it up to max volume to hear it - and that is when the difference is isolated into a result track - implies that the difference is probably inaudible under normal usage; but I do find the -45db difference very interesting - it is unfortunate that a more detailed investigation, (investigating the effect of the voltage fed to the opamps for example) will likely never be performed. These are both very high-end opamps - I will PM Ti on his forums to see if I can get more info, he's usually extraordinarily helpful as you well know.
And the Woo3 is a tube amp - we KNOW tube amps have giant measurable differences versus SS, so I find it especially interesting that you declare they sound incredibly similar (Woo and M^3). Assuming the M^3 does not actually measure strangely for a SS amp, which I find very unlikely...hmm, will ask Mr Kan.
 
However, the Woo3 is a relatively high-end tube amps, and tube amps can still have inaudible levels of distortion and so on when well designed - my immediate reaction is to wonder what the GS-1 is doing to the sound - but speculation isn't particularly fruitful - it could be much higher than advertised crosstalk - crosstalk is rarely perceived in small amounts (well, small in the sense of audible, but not blatantly obviously audible within a second of listening) as a degradation and can have all the effects on the sound stage you spoke of. Faced with a larger subjective soundstage, it can be easier to isolate details - but this is a lot of speculation here. AFAIK the GS-1 has never ended up being measured.

In my experience, I have found the Woo amps not to be very tuby and sound pretty much like good SS amps, so I wasn't surprised not to hear a big difference between the 637/627 M^3 and the Cetron tubed Woo3.
 
my immediate reaction is to wonder what the GS-1 is doing to the sound .....
 
It sounds like a clearer version of the same thing played in a larger room.  Not an echo or cavernous sound, just like there is more space all around.
 
 
Quote:

Angled drivers are mechanically pointing at a different part of your ear. That isn't possible with an amp. Sound stage is largely created in the mixing of the music, not the equipment reproducing it. But it can be affected by time shifts (reverb) and phase problems (cancellation).

Is the effect consistent across all music, or does it affect some music more than others?

 
 
I know...... 
 
It's constant across all music and even cable TV and netflix movies.
 
Just think of it as clearer, better resolution than the M^3 or the Woo3 that is playing in a bigger space.  That's the best I can do.  Maybe Kevin Gilmore would be able to explain it better.
 
Another thing, recalling our speaker discussion, is that you might not be able to experience this type of thing with speakers... the increased resolution might be noticeable with headphones only.
 
 
 

 

[Willakan]

Duplicate post? Also, "based" is the operative word (regarding the Kevin Gilmore design), they still could have chosen some weird components or something. Not saying they did, but can't rule it out.
 

 

[bigshot]

Phase would affect parts of music more than others and wouldn't affect mono stuff the same as stereo. A low volume compression to bring up subtle spacial cues would also be intermittent depending on the availability of spacial cues to accentuate. If it's constant, it has to be some sort of time shifting, like a very slight echo at a fixed delay.

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

and bigshot

Duplicate post? Also, "based" is the operative word (regarding the Kevin Gilmore design), they still could have chosen some weird components or something. Not saying they did, but can't rule it out.
 

I don't know what to make of it guys.....
 
The GS-1 is a pretty highly regarded amp.  I seriously doubt it's doing anything strange.  It has a very clean and clear sound relative to the other amps I have and because of this has become my amp of choice for most of my listening.  It also has a boatload of features making it one of the best bangs for your buck around.  Too bad Jason is going to stop making them.
 
I guess you'd have to listen to it for a while to understand what I mean by the bigger space......  maybe I should have said it sounds less closed in than the M^3 or Woo3 I have.
 

 

[Willakan]

I would also, based on the design it is based on, assume it would sound just like the M^3. However, as you reported a clearly audible difference and said you had taken volume matching ect into account, I looked at other options. 
 
Regrettably, highly-regarded does not equate to actually good. I mean, the Hifiman DAPS measure considerably worse than an ipod (and this from the Stereophile resident audio engineer, hardly someone to bash audiophile equipment). Not saying there is anything wrong with the GS-1, but can't rule it out. The differences you say you are hearing (which we are assuming are nothing to do with cognitive bias ect so that we might have a meaningful discussion) seem relatively large - thus I would conclude that they would be represented in the measurements. Unfortunately, speculating as to exactly what in the measurements it could be, as we don't have any measurements of it, is not hugely productive.
 
An amp can still sound perfectly clean/clear ect and be doing weird and wonderful things to the signal. The thing is, doing something to the sound often sounds subjectively better - but rather than acknowledge that many people seem obsessed instead with proving that the modified sound is in fact more accurate which clearly proves science is stupid.(thankfully, you don't seem to number amongst them)