Does dynamic drivers bass punch directly proportional to theirs speed ?
Jul 1, 2019 at 9:51 AM Post #31 of 40
about the title. bass is low frequency so it's the slowest stuff by far that a driver will have to handle. so of course any concept of speed is irrelevant here. 100% of headphones are way way faster than the fastest stuff a bass requires. maybe you mean having a strong enough damping but that's a significantly different thing. TBH I suspect that the frequency response in the low end(if there is a bump, how and where the subs roll off), and the level of distortions are what form our impressions of "good" or "muddy", "uncontrolled", "slow" bass. speed is more of a subjective misuse of the objective concept that then turn out to be reasoned by people as what must be improved to get that feeling of "speed". an actual faster bass would just be a higher frequency.

about extrusion, it's not like with speakers, to the point that dynamic drivers in headphones typically don't bother with a "surround"(the stuff that suspends the cone to the speaker's body). instead the diaphragm is directly glued. that should tell you something about how much smaller the movement requirements really are on headphones. and of course they are, you don't have to reach high SPL in a big room at a distance, with headphone you have to reach the same SPL while sitting right on the ear in a tiny acoustic chamber.
about grabbing the air with little hands and pushing it a certain way instead of another making the sound of some design different than others, there is no simple answer because be it on the electrical, mechanical or acoustic side, everything interacts and influences everything else. some a lot, some not so much but you will rarely get any clear cut answer because you will almost never be able to only get one specific change affecting only one other thing. therefore deciding that a certain impression is caused by a specific change is not as easy as many audiophile like to make it seem.
a simple example would be the fact that with a headphone we have a mix of sound wave traveling in the air, and the sort of pumping action. we're certainly getting traveling sound waves, but at the same time, just let a little space between your head and the pads and the amplitude in the subs will usually collapse by several dB. different designs and sizes will impact how much low end you lose when doing so, but they don't really tell you anything about bass quality(subjective or objective) while you wear your headphone properly. it's just the use of different designs leading to sometimes different, sometime pretty similar results.

as to your point about IEMs, I believe that you're wrong. I most certainly don't feel the bass I can feel with a full size headphone, just like a headphone never comes close to speakers despite how said speakers will often roll off in the subs a lot more than the headphone. and my hypothesis on this is that it could be a matter of physical shaking instead of actual sound at the eardrum. an IEM is so small so light, with such a tiny mechanical power that shaking anything is a challenge. a headphone might, depending on the weight, clamping force, size of the driver, etc, give a physical shaking along with the sub sounds. even if it's limited to the head where the pads touch, or maybe a little on the skin in front of the driver? but it's believable IMO that we might at a certain output level feel that shaking and subjectively interpret it as "bass so stronk and real!". it can't challenge the feeling of the entire body shaking from a subwoofer, but it's something. and Floyd Toole explained that we do get influenced by physical vibrations, even when they don't come from where the sound source is, and even when the physical shaking is not at the same frequency, it can still improve our sense of bass. so it is my hypothesis for now that IEMs fail in that specific aspect, so maybe it's why some people are never satisfied with how the low end sounds on IEMs. except they're probably not actually complaining about sound, just can't define what is missing in their experience. which could explain why some will try to compensate by increasing the bass amplitude, or some may look for something that extends as low as possible while remaining "flat", despite again how their speaker counterpart probably don't. and some will simply never be able to fool themselves into feeling a "believable" music in the sub frequencies. different people will not be influenced as much by certain variables in the same way. I know many people who think the bass they get from their IEM is amazing and much better/cleaner than something a typical speaker would provide. I'm not one of those, but I kind of understand how they could feel that way, so long as they don't miss tactile bass too much(which I always do).
or maybe it's just that we are overly used to speakers and their levels of distortions and room reverb, so when we get subs with a different frequency response(fairly typical of ortho vs DD case), or a lot less distortions, or almost no reverb, then we don't recognize it as matching our idea/memory of proper bass? IDK.
subjectivity makes diagnostics really hard, and trying to tear down complicated models into single variables cause-consequence concepts usually just makes us reach fallacious conclusions because we rarely can actually test such ideal and simple models in real life to know if we're right or full of it.

I guess my main point is that I agree with the warning not to assume that speaker's know how will automatically translate as is for headphone.

Yeah I agree, it's just fun to think about the engineering of the stuff we like, at least I do :)

I would like to read your opinion about the stiffness thing I talked about later on
I got some shower thoughts!
bass definition is related to the drivers speed so it every bass notes are well defined and not muddied with the other and this require speed so the driver can keep up with multiple bass notes.

For the bass punch and impact it's actually related to the driver stiffness only!. Let's see why planars and estats don't have the same bass impact ? they are faster than dynamics and can get very loud for the mid bass and they actually have bigger surface area so they have more overall combined extrusion travel distance. The main difference aside from the fact they are bipolar is their drivers are not stiff at all!, because of that they deliver bass incrementally in a kinda wiggly motion and not as one straight motion of stiff dynamic drivers, even if their drivers and bass is extremely fast it's not as impactful because it's incrementally delivered.

I think my shower thought is true :D

note: I am talking about the driver design and not the electronics, they have a significant rule I am sure but here I am discussing the driver design only.
 
Jul 1, 2019 at 10:15 AM Post #32 of 40
about the title. bass is low frequency so it's the slowest stuff by far that a driver will have to handle. so of course any concept of speed is irrelevant here. 100% of headphones are way way faster than the fastest stuff a bass requires. maybe you mean having a strong enough damping but that's a significantly different thing. TBH I suspect that the frequency response in the low end(if there is a bump, how and where the subs roll off), and the level of distortions are what form our impressions of "good" or "muddy", "uncontrolled", "slow" bass. speed is more of a subjective misuse of the objective concept that then turn out to be reasoned by people as what must be improved to get that feeling of "speed". an actual faster bass would just be a higher frequency.

about extrusion, it's not like with speakers, to the point that dynamic drivers in headphones typically don't bother with a "surround"(the stuff that suspends the cone to the speaker's body). instead the diaphragm is directly glued. that should tell you something about how much smaller the movement requirements really are on headphones. and of course they are, you don't have to reach high SPL in a big room at a distance, with headphone you have to reach the same SPL while sitting right on the ear in a tiny acoustic chamber.
about grabbing the air with little hands and pushing it a certain way instead of another making the sound of some design different than others, there is no simple answer because be it on the electrical, mechanical or acoustic side, everything interacts and influences everything else. some a lot, some not so much but you will rarely get any clear cut answer because you will almost never be able to only get one specific change affecting only one other thing. therefore deciding that a certain impression is caused by a specific change is not as easy as many audiophile like to make it seem.
a simple example would be the fact that with a headphone we have a mix of sound wave traveling in the air, and the sort of pumping action. we're certainly getting traveling sound waves, but at the same time, just let a little space between your head and the pads and the amplitude in the subs will usually collapse by several dB. different designs and sizes will impact how much low end you lose when doing so, but they don't really tell you anything about bass quality(subjective or objective) while you wear your headphone properly. it's just the use of different designs leading to sometimes different, sometime pretty similar results.

as to your point about IEMs, I believe that you're wrong. I most certainly don't feel the bass I can feel with a full size headphone, just like a headphone never comes close to speakers despite how said speakers will often roll off in the subs a lot more than the headphone. and my hypothesis on this is that it could be a matter of physical shaking instead of actual sound at the eardrum. an IEM is so small so light, with such a tiny mechanical power that shaking anything is a challenge. a headphone might, depending on the weight, clamping force, size of the driver, etc, give a physical shaking along with the sub sounds. even if it's limited to the head where the pads touch, or maybe a little on the skin in front of the driver? but it's believable IMO that we might at a certain output level feel that shaking and subjectively interpret it as "bass so stronk and real!". it can't challenge the feeling of the entire body shaking from a subwoofer, but it's something. and Floyd Toole explained that we do get influenced by physical vibrations, even when they don't come from where the sound source is, and even when the physical shaking is not at the same frequency, it can still improve our sense of bass. so it is my hypothesis for now that IEMs fail in that specific aspect, so maybe it's why some people are never satisfied with how the low end sounds on IEMs. except they're probably not actually complaining about sound, just can't define what is missing in their experience. which could explain why some will try to compensate by increasing the bass amplitude, or some may look for something that extends as low as possible while remaining "flat", despite again how their speaker counterpart probably don't. and some will simply never be able to fool themselves into feeling a "believable" music in the sub frequencies. different people will not be influenced as much by certain variables in the same way. I know many people who think the bass they get from their IEM is amazing and much better/cleaner than something a typical speaker would provide. I'm not one of those, but I kind of understand how they could feel that way, so long as they don't miss tactile bass too much(which I always do).
or maybe it's just that we are overly used to speakers and their levels of distortions and room reverb, so when we get subs with a different frequency response(fairly typical of ortho vs DD case), or a lot less distortions, or almost no reverb, then we don't recognize it as matching our idea/memory of proper bass? IDK.
subjectivity makes diagnostics really hard, and trying to tear down complicated models into single variables cause-consequence concepts usually just makes us reach fallacious conclusions because we rarely can actually test such ideal and simple models in real life to know if we're right or full of it.

I guess my main point is that I agree with the warning not to assume that speaker's know how will automatically translate as is for headphone.

I would say if the "speed" of bass from a pair of headphones will be affected mostly by the enclosure rather than just limited by the driver.

Even if you say bass is the lowest frequency that the driver will handle but driver do tend to distort the most at this frequency too. It clearly show that it isn't the easiest the handle still.

CSD plots also shows wildly differing decay speed for different headphones, which I believe that it does contribute to the sense of "speed"
 
Jul 1, 2019 at 10:25 AM Post #33 of 40
Yeah I agree, it's just fun to think about the engineering of the stuff we like, at least I do :)

I would like to read your opinion about the stiffness thing I talked about later on
I'm free balling here, I have nowhere near the knowledge of mechanic of material or acoustic to confidently claim anything on that matter:
intuitively I would guess that something completely solid would be cool. but of course that would also mean make something heavier and that's rapidly a problem. a different one but a problem still. also if something was really stiff, it would mean that moving it would displace air all at the same time over the entire surface of the diaphragm, so it would require a much better air flow around it, and a really strong electrical damping. not simple stuff to achieve.
I'm guessing there will always be a middle ground that is more beneficial than pushing any one thing to 11. like maybe have a flexible diaphragm, but working out a shape that would stiffen specific areas that otherwise would become troublesome because of the material entering resonance or some other distortions being created by the lag between the movement of the coil and the movement of the outer part of the diaphragm(I'm thinking dynamic driver here. maybe also just make a coil with a bigger diameter so that it will push maybe at some ideal place on the diaphragm in case the center isn't it? IDK. just ideas and guesses.
 
Jul 1, 2019 at 11:32 AM Post #34 of 40
I would say if the "speed" of bass from a pair of headphones will be affected mostly by the enclosure rather than just limited by the driver.

Even if you say bass is the lowest frequency that the driver will handle but driver do tend to distort the most at this frequency too. It clearly show that it isn't the easiest the handle still.

CSD plots also shows wildly differing decay speed for different headphones, which I believe that it does contribute to the sense of "speed"
but that's why speed is IMO a bad term for that. the decay is a matter of damping. we don't need something extremely fast to get critical damping, but a mix of electrical and mechanical damping reaching that critical value we need. not underdamped and not overdamped either, or the movement will take longer to settle.
to me the concept of speed has to do with the ability to make high frequencies and that's about it. it's the relation we can establish almost anywhere:
for digital signal you need high sample rate to be able to contain a lot of ultrasounds and make a Dirac impulse look close to ideal(stopping fast and with as little "ringing" as possible).
if you take a digital signal, and send it somewhere while applying a high pass filter(remove high freqs), that will reduce the maximum transfer speed.
of course high frequencies are faster by definition so that's one easy relation to speed.
a driver needs to physically move that fast to keep up with high frequencies. if it doesn't, it won't reach the expected peak amplitude in time before the sine starts changing direction and "calls back" the diaphragm. that will lead to a loss in amplitude for that high frequency. so a slow driver will roll off in the treble more/before a fast driver(the converse isn't necessarily true, there can be other causes for trebles to roll off beyond lack of speed).

IMO all those relations are one and the same: speed and high frequencies work well together.

the subjective impression of speed is something I understand as a feeling I have experienced many times, I get what feeling is expressed when I read it. but I wish we would call it something else. even more so when such impressions can really come from different objective causes. the frequency response clearly can do that, distortions of course, very bad damping too. and most likely a mix of all of the above and perhaps more, is really what gives us our "sense of fast bass".
 
Jul 16, 2019 at 7:11 AM Post #35 of 40
but that's why speed is IMO a bad term for that. the decay is a matter of damping. we don't need something extremely fast to get critical damping, but a mix of electrical and mechanical damping reaching that critical value we need. not underdamped and not overdamped either, or the movement will take longer to settle.
to me the concept of speed has to do with the ability to make high frequencies and that's about it. it's the relation we can establish almost anywhere:
for digital signal you need high sample rate to be able to contain a lot of ultrasounds and make a Dirac impulse look close to ideal(stopping fast and with as little "ringing" as possible).
if you take a digital signal, and send it somewhere while applying a high pass filter(remove high freqs), that will reduce the maximum transfer speed.
of course high frequencies are faster by definition so that's one easy relation to speed.
a driver needs to physically move that fast to keep up with high frequencies. if it doesn't, it won't reach the expected peak amplitude in time before the sine starts changing direction and "calls back" the diaphragm. that will lead to a loss in amplitude for that high frequency. so a slow driver will roll off in the treble more/before a fast driver(the converse isn't necessarily true, there can be other causes for trebles to roll off beyond lack of speed).

IMO all those relations are one and the same: speed and high frequencies work well together.

the subjective impression of speed is something I understand as a feeling I have experienced many times, I get what feeling is expressed when I read it. but I wish we would call it something else. even more so when such impressions can really come from different objective causes. the frequency response clearly can do that, distortions of course, very bad damping too. and most likely a mix of all of the above and perhaps more, is really what gives us our "sense of fast bass".

I think this gets a lot of it.

It's about alignment.

Talk of fast bass has, I believe, often has connotations of "tight" bass - bass that is not overblown or has significant resonant peaks. So if the bass response in the bass is relatively flat, then to be "fast" it needs to integrate with the rest of the spectrum well. This is because the leading edge of bass notes when they are not just single sine waves, have harmonic content. So a plucked bass string or a timpany strike wil need the the rest of the transducers to be amplitude aligned too.

Now comes the controversial bit. I believe they need to be well phase aligned as well. If the bass comes ahead of the mid upwards you get a soggy thrum of bass. "How can it be ahead" I hear fans of temporal casualty cry. Well a crossover and acoustic roll off cause phase shifts. For instance a 80Hz 4th order Linkwizt Riley subwoofer crossover on its own can delay the signal 30mS relative to the other frequencies. The only way to avoid this is either a transducer that does DC to light frequency response (or a good single driver headphone), have complex FIR filters (only DSP crossovers I'm afraid) or some time domain correction like Dirac or TACT which can help. However very experienced acoustic designers know how to mitigate this somewhat.

So it is not the stiffness, mass or excursion of the driver that contributes directly to "fast bass", although any system is the sum of its parts.

Edit: to better answer the OP: the faster a bass driver can move for a given excursion, the higher frequency it can reproduce. Comendable up to a point, but at some point to do this it will end up too light and fragile to do the large low frequency excusions needed to be a bass driver.
 
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Jul 16, 2019 at 7:34 AM Post #36 of 40
I think this gets a lot of it.

It's about alignment.

Talk of fast bass has, I believe, often has connotations of "tight" bass - bass that is not overblown or has significant resonant peaks. So if the bass response in the bass is relatively flat, then to be "fast" it needs to integrate with the rest of the spectrum well. This is because the leading edge of bass notes when they are not just single sine waves, have harmonic content. So a plucked bass string or a timpany strike wil need the the rest of the transducers to be amplitude aligned too.

Now comes the controversial bit. I believe they need to be well phase aligned as well. If the bass comes ahead of the mid upwards you get a soggy thrum of bass. "How can it be ahead" I hear fans of temporal casualty cry. Well a crossover and acoustic roll off cause phase shifts. For instance a 80Hz 4th order Linkwizt Riley subwoofer crossover on its own can delay the signal 30mS relative to the other frequencies. The only way to avoid this is either a transducer that does DC to light frequency response (or a good headphone), have complex FIR filters (only DSP crossovers I'm afraid) or some time domain correction like Dirac or TAC which can help. However very experienced acoustic designers know how to mitigate this somewhat.

So it is not the stiffness, mass or excursion of the driver that contributes directly to "fast bass", although any system is the sum of its parts.
I had not considered an important delay between low freq and the rest because I assume that most of the time it will remain small enough not to bother us. but I can imagine how above a given delay, the sub rumble could be... disconnected from the higher frequency content of the initial kick. that could probably feel strange and perhaps, "slow". I'm guessing a case where the low end start before the kick would not make many people happy ^_^. I'll have to add this to my never ending todo list and try various delays for fun.
 
Jul 16, 2019 at 10:05 AM Post #37 of 40
I had not considered an important delay between low freq and the rest because I assume that most of the time it will remain small enough not to bother us. but I can imagine how above a given delay, the sub rumble could be... disconnected from the higher frequency content of the initial kick. that could probably feel strange and perhaps, "slow". I'm guessing a case where the low end start before the kick would not make many people happy ^_^. I'll have to add this to my never ending todo list and try various delays for fun.

Have fun. I've been messing about with this stuff since the early '90s, and I don't have all the answers yet. However I have found that "bass heads", Beats fans, and the general public with EQ or subwoofers actually like this "ahead" bass. It is impressive and "fun". However it wrecks good music. Once you've heard an expert align this stuff and the effect it has on music you can't go back. The first reaction may be "where's all the bass gone?", or "it sounds dry", or "lighter". There's no less bass, it just aligned. Then after a period of listening to the music instead of the gear, the penny drops and the music shows you it's right.

This is why I don't want bass boost, Harman curves in the low end of headphones, room EQ that is only frequency response, or "impressive" bass.
 
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Jul 16, 2019 at 10:10 AM Post #38 of 40
ahah, now I want to try even more. I might cheat and use my massive .txt administrative power to move this up the to do list. ^_^
 
Nov 27, 2019 at 1:11 PM Post #39 of 40
Not to revive / derail too much, but what are today's top contenders for the best bass punch / quality mentioned here? I'm looking for a "home theater" set of cans, purely for movies. Baby on the way, will have to resort to headphones for a few years to watch movies. I've run ATH-M50's and they'll rumble, but I'm looking for more sub-bass/punch/rumble etc. Home theater pic attached...whatever cans will get me closest to my speaker set up, ha.

Considerations:
Sony MDR-Z7, MDR-Z7M2, MDR-Z1R
HD800
FOCAL ELEX
What else?

Would like to buy used and/or stay under $1k.

 
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Nov 28, 2019 at 2:20 AM Post #40 of 40
Not to revive / derail too much, but what are today's top contenders for the best bass punch / quality mentioned here? I'm looking for a "home theater" set of cans, purely for movies. Baby on the way, will have to resort to headphones for a few years to watch movies. I've run ATH-M50's and they'll rumble, but I'm looking for more sub-bass/punch/rumble etc. Home theater pic attached...whatever cans will get me closest to my speaker set up, ha.

Considerations:
Sony MDR-Z7, MDR-Z7M2, MDR-Z1R
HD800
FOCAL ELEX
What else?

Would like to buy used and/or stay under $1k.


I don't have first hand experience with all those headphones but here what I can help you with.

All the headphones you mentioned are bad for this purpose except maybe the Z1R but it's 1.8k $$$.

If you don't mind the weight go for the Audeze LCD-X (+600 grams), they slam and rumble like no one else at this price range. The LCD-2 are great also but need EQ.

Hifiman Ananda are much lighter around 400 grams (~$700 on sale right now) do rumble but don't have the slam and punch for its price.

If you want any headphones for HT you have to EQ IMO, I apply +4-6dB when I use any headphones with neutral bass response. It's much more fun and immersive.
 

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