[Robn13]

 
 
 
Rants of a Noob. 

 
1) Poorly engineered devices/buggy function/art vs. science/technology excuses. In looking for/researching/investigating portable audiophile solutions, I am struck by the number of high priced units that are thrown onto the market only to be followed by evaluations by users and excuses from manufacturers of the type just mentioned. The situation is compounded by poor or non existent customer service/specifications/instruction manuals. By all accounts Dr. Fang Bian is a brilliant, great guy who has done much to advance the audiophile cause. He has also brought to market a succession (as in one after another) of poorly engineered, buggy, and otherwise compromised devices with poor customer support, education, and instruction. As anyone with business experience will testify, this is NOT a good business model. Then, as after the May, 2011 Stereophile Review of the HM-602 DAP, he trots out the art vs. science excuse when the device tests poorly after measurement. Well, OK. Hearing is an elusive, individual perception. What sounds good to you might not sound good to me. But everything in the natural world is distributed in the form of a bell shaped curve. I want that product sitting right at the top of the bell, where the greatest number of people actually agree it sounds great. As a doctor myself I recognize that the practice of medicine, while rooted in science, is actually very much an art. BUT, I make damn sure my patients know this BEFORE problems arise instead of after the poopoo hits the fan and I look like an incompetent jerk making excuses trying to avoid a malpractice case.  As the nwavguy very astutely reveals in his blog, a lot of so called  and very pricey audiophile equipment just doesn’t test out very well and really doesn’t blow anybody’s hair back. Bottom line situation and result: poorly engineered, poorly performing, poorly supported equipment, expensive and a poor value, with sales driven by marketing BS, hype, and pretty anodizing. That ain’t what I want in attempting to purchase good sound.
 
2) My second rant involves the audiophile as a guinea pig or an idiot who will tolerate any inappropriate situation a vendor inflicts on her. I plug my audiophile dac/amp into my laptop/desktop via a simple usb connection and at least have the illusion of great sounds. Why the hell can’t I do this with my latest, greatest, super Android smartphone? Why can’t I use the damn thing as a simple digital out device when it does a gazillion other things that I could care less about and will never use. And most of which are designed to put more money in the carrier’s pocket. And while I can at least clear my laptop of this bloatware, there is no such provision on my “smart”phone. Apple? OK, it’s slick. I can forgive the battery, no expandable memory, and no Flash crap. But again, what about simple digital out. OK for a $30 dongle that sticks 2” out the bottom I can use the ipad. Anything else and I have to buy a $500 plus device that Algo and Fostex are just happy to sell me. Then I have to worry about that becoming outdated by some change Apple makes and pairing it with some other brand’s amp if I don’t like their amp. Does anybody besides this unsophisticated noob think this is insane and that audiophiles, in the fullest sense of the street word, are being completely dissed?
 
I just think it has gotten to the point where we have the economic clout to plainly state that we will not tolerate this garbage any longer. If people like Jude can have the drive and creativity to put a site like Headfi together, people like Jude could also become a powerful advocate/spokesman with manufacturers. From where I sit, we all sure as hell need one.

 

[mrcuccuou]

............he is banned by the way, nwavguy,, this thread is misplaced, i think...
 
but dude i agree with you... i use to pity people using ibuds rocking their heads enjoying their music, but lately im been envying them, cause i cant seem to enjoy mine, ... 

 

[seekadds]

You have good points Robn. 
 
1) Yes some products are crap. But that is what this forum is for, to read reviews and try to avoid the crap. My issue is that these reviews often mean nothing to me. In other words, the most popular reviews, in my opinion, all say the same thing. I understand we have a glossary to define the terms, but I still think words like "airy," "sparkly," etc. are not well-defined enough, and people misuse them in reviews. Really all the subjective judgements in reviews are pointless. It peeves me when I read one of these types of reviews, and all the responses are praising. I think it's because the reviewer gave them what they want to hear, not what they need to hear. Everyone wants the assurance that the $1000 they just spent is the best there is. 
 
What I do use the reviews for though, is mainly to learn the build/usage aspects of a product. Also frequency response graphs are not subjective and can be useful to see if equipment will be bass-heavy enough for me. Especially for those of us who are more technically inclined, I would love it if manufacturers and reviewers gave more quantifiable information about the products. 
 
2) Oh gosh don't get me started on this one lol. I come to this forum, every day. I check anythingbutipod, iaudiophile, cnet, engadget...every day. All in the hopes that my perfect portable mp3 player will be announced or released. The Fiio X3 was damn close to being it, but that got canned. The iBasso DX100 is a god among clips, but no way can I live with less than 10 hours battery. And the fact that it can't be used as a standalone DAC is a joke to me. Put the best DAC in the world in there but gimp it massively? Not for me. On paper the Cowon D3 is my dream come true, but we all know its real-world problems.
 
So yes, I'd say at this point, we are not flexing our power as the customer enough. Is it so hard to put s/pdif on a non-ipod portable player that can do gapless, multiple on-the-go playlists, 10+ hrs battery, with physical buttons? It is not acceptable to me that the only option is a rockboxed iRiver H1XX, a player from many years ago.

 

[Brooko]

Here - knock yourself out - plenty of reading http://www.head-fi.org/t/374155/leaving-portable-hifi-its-too-silly
 
Personally - I'm no audiophile - I just love my music.
 
iPhone 4 / iPod Touch 4 with SE535 LE (reds) covers all my bases - for true portability.  I have an Arrow on the way for my higher impedance cans - so I can take them with me if I'm going to be away for a while.  The Arrow + a LOD is all I need.  The dac in the iP4 is fine - clean, low impedance - what more could I want.  I see no point in a CLAS or HP-P1 for me - I value portability too much.
 
TBH - I couldn't really see where OP's post above is going.  Vote with your wallet.  If people aren't buying - the manufacturers/designers will change.  And if you don't like something - talk to the designers.  The good ones listen.

 

[seekadds]

Ok then listen manufacturers!
 
ideal mp3 player (most important issues first):
 
-reliable UI and hardware
[size=medium]-multiple on-the-go playlists*
-20+ hours battery life
-ID3 tag functionality*
-external physical buttons (lock, volume, <, play, >)
-drag-and-drop file transfer functionality (no itunes or zune bloatware)
-s/pdif-out (for my receiver)
-expandable memory slot
-replayGain support*
-gapless playback*[/size]
 
*software-related i.e. Rockbox, android will easily address these
 

 

[nc8000]

The problem for a manufacturer is that your list is i no way equal to my list so a device that fulfilled all your points might not at all rock my boat and vice versa

 

[seekadds]

Quote:

The problem for a manufacturer is that your list is i no way equal to my list so a device that fulfilled all your points might not at all rock my boat and vice versa

I see your point, but I would like to counter with: I am more important than you. Just kidding, but honestly I am sure there are others whose list is like mine. It seems my two hardest requirements are s/pdif and physical buttons. Everything is becoming touch screen and I don't like that.
 
I am hoping the new Hifiman will have playlists and gapless out-of-the-box. 
 
Who knows, maybe I should give up my portable audio dreams.

 

[nc8000]

Yes physical buttons are nice, gapless a must but I have absolutely no interrest in playlists, never used them in my life, so that wouldn't even make it to my requirements list and probably neither would spdif out. Full bit perfect support for all hires flac sample rates would be very high on my list (24/48, 24/88, 24/96, 24/176 and 24/192)

 

[lostid]

We are stupid only if we spend more than we can afford.

 
 

 

[Robn13]

Thanks for the responses Guys and the reference to that other thread Brooko. I will definitely check it out.
 
A few brief answers.
 
1) Vendors are purchasing excellent but cheap electronic components, carefully assembling them, putting them in pretty boxes, marking them up xxx$, sending them out the door and waiting for our hard earned $$$ to roll in. Trouble is so many are poorly researched, engineered, and ineffective. They are also frequently deficient in objective electrical measurement when subjected to this kind of testing.  Testing is not the WHOLE story, but nobody can argue with a measurement like THD. This situation with portable digital equipment is in contrast to high end home audio equipment. Apart from the point of rapidly diminishing returns, the more you are able spend, the more clearly apparent the difference in SQ between good stuff and cheap stuff. That's one point I was trying to make. If you are satisfied with the headphone jack on your cell phone or i-device, that is great. But for you. Not me. I want better. I joined headfi looking for better.
 
2) According to statistics, everything in the natural world falls under a bell shaped curve, not a scattergram. That means IF a device REALLY (objectively) sounds good, the greatest  NUMBER (NOT ALL) of people will AGREE it sounds good. There is certainly a consensus in home audio circles about the brands that the majority of audiophiles believe inarguably sound GOOD. There is no such consensus in portable digital audio. WHY NOT? See #1.
 
3) We all carry cell phones, Android, Apple, or Windows. I don't want to carry anything more than I have to. Why, with QUAD CORE cell phones now here do NONE of these devices allow us to choose our own music player and output a pure digital signal over a UniversalSB connection, just like our desk/lap top? Then we could use the dac/amp of our choice and hopefully get the sound we want. WHY NOT?
 
Because it is NOT about our satisfaction. It is about money. We are small in number but growing and are becoming an attractive niche market. We NEED Guys like nwavguy and yes, Jude, speaking out for us. We need some quality equipment that does what it says it does not according to just a few people, but at least a healthy minority. 
Cheers Guys. 

 I wish you all good sounds! If you already have them, great! The rest of us have some needlessly difficult work to do. Rob N.

 

[nc8000]

I do think that the number of people who would want digital out from a phone is so small that no manufacturer could make a business based on that. A phone will be definition be a hell hole of rf interference and noise so not at all the device I would want to use as a high quality sound device to external amp/dac. Also to me a phone requires a headset (headphone and mic) and I have yet to see any soloution to this that includes an external amp. So for on the go real life the iPhone with Etymotics headset is more than good enough for me. I might then carry my C4 and/or iPod+SR71-B+better phones for pure listening to music (or watching video with the Touch allthough most likely that would be on the iPhone).

 

[Br777]

franlky i have become mostly fed up with most gear and reviewers on the audiophile market.  People underestimate the effects of placebo and bias, and are shanked out of thousands of dollars.
 
i have owned lots of gear that is considered the end all be all only to sell it after i could hear literally zero difference with it.
 
i have come to the conclusion that headphones are truly the only important piece of gear.  - for example - Own $1000 Customs by westome - ES5's.
they sound fantastic.. Way better than anything i've owned.
 
however the pressure from head-fi to get all kinds of crazy gear to "make them sound their best" is silly.
 
I have run them through a very capable full desktop rig - optical out of computer via foobar/wasapi, schiit bifrost dac optical in running to a objective 2 amp (an absolutely perfect amp for both transportable and desktop that costs $150 by the way) and out to my es5's -   Then i compared the best i could to my customs out of my clip zip... for the life of me i heard no difference..   so i have a $50 player that does me just fine. 
 
i had a similar experience with my desktop rig and my LCD-2's comparing my $150 O2 amp and desktop rig to a TOTL legendary desktop amp, and finding i preferred the O2
I even sold my dac in favor of a simple ipod with LOD - again, no difference..
 
i also owned a algorhythym solo and found it made ZERO difference from my clip zip headphone out.
 
the ignorance of many top reviewers, and audio companies who dont test their gear, and truly believe they are putting out solid products, and just arent is just endless.
 
i feel your pain.  i say invest in quality headphones, subscribe to NwAvGuy's blog, and get educated.  He is one of the few people in this business who truly knows what he is talking about, and he is creating products that cost next to nothing that are trumping "TOTL" gear.
 
In the end I have saved myself multiple thousands of dollars, and feel i have a rig that can compete with our outclass  equipment that people spend their life savings on.

 

[seekadds]

 
Quote:

 
i have come to the conclusion that headphones are truly the only important piece of gear.  - for example - Own $1000 Customs by westome - ES5's.
they sound fantastic.. Way better than anything i've owned.
 
however the pressure from head-fi to get all kinds of crazy gear to "make them sound their best" is silly.
 
I have run them through a very capable full desktop rig - optical out of computer via foobar/wasapi, schiit bifrost dac optical in running to a objective 2 amp (an absolutely perfect amp for both transportable and desktop that costs $150 by the way) and out to my es5's -   Then i compared the best i could to my customs out of my clip zip... for the life of me i heard no difference..   so i have a $50 player that does me just fine. 
 
 

 
I buy this, headphones are surely the largest factor of how your rig will sound. I won't say other equipment does not add benefit, but usually the benefit is small and has much more diminishing returns for your money. 
 
This is sort of made clear by the stats on head-fi itself, the headphone forums have a lot more posts/viewers than the rest.

 

[Deltaechoe]

Quote:

Thanks for the responses Guys and the reference to that other thread Brooko. I will definitely check it out.
 
A few brief answers.
 
1) Vendors are purchasing excellent but cheap electronic components, carefully assembling them, putting them in pretty boxes, marking them up xxx$, sending them out the door and waiting for our hard earned $$$ to roll in. Trouble is so many are poorly researched, engineered, and ineffective. They are also frequently deficient in objective electrical measurement when subjected to this kind of testing.  Testing is not the WHOLE story, but nobody can argue with a measurement like THD. This situation with portable digital equipment is in contrast to high end home audio equipment. Apart from the point of rapidly diminishing returns, the more you are able spend, the more clearly apparent the difference in SQ between good stuff and cheap stuff. That's one point I was trying to make. If you are satisfied with the headphone jack on your cell phone or i-device, that is great. But for you. Not me. I want better. I joined headfi looking for better.
 
2) According to statistics, everything in the natural world falls under a bell shaped curve, not a scattergram. That means IF a device REALLY (objectively) sounds good, the greatest  NUMBER (NOT ALL) of people will AGREE it sounds good. There is certainly a consensus in home audio circles about the brands that the majority of audiophiles believe inarguably sound GOOD. There is no such consensus in portable digital audio. WHY NOT? See #1.
 
3) We all carry cell phones, Android, Apple, or Windows. I don't want to carry anything more than I have to. Why, with QUAD CORE cell phones now here do NONE of these devices allow us to choose our own music player and output a pure digital signal over a UniversalSB connection, just like our desk/lap top? Then we could use the dac/amp of our choice and hopefully get the sound we want. WHY NOT?
 
Because it is NOT about our satisfaction. It is about money. We are small in number but growing and are becoming an attractive niche market. We NEED Guys like nwavguy and yes, Jude, speaking out for us. We need some quality equipment that does what it says it does not according to just a few people, but at least a healthy minority. 
Cheers Guys. 

 I wish you all good sounds! If you already have them, great! The rest of us have some needlessly difficult work to do. Rob N.

Rob N, I just got my new portable DAC so now I'm going to hardcore about working on a kernel hack that allows for android usb audio out via OTG.  The only problems with this are:
 
1) Its effing hard, writing kernels is no beginners task that's for sure
2) You will need a rooted android phone
 
Also, from what I hear, there are at least 2 other devs (who are much more well known than me) who are also working on this exact feature.  The CM9 team are working on it, and so is Franco Francisco.  Before long we will be able to feed a digital line out from our android phones to any self powered DAC that is compatible with the ALSA drivers

 

[Robn13]

I thought that just like getting a DIGITAL signal out of a computer so that the internal electrics would not pollute/corrupt it AFTER the dac converted it to analog, a smart phone, now essentially a mini computer, would be the same. Besides, every smart phone I have ever owned has already had SOME kind of usb connection for charging. So why couldn't my phone be configured just like my netbook, just a software/driver change to enable the hardware that is already there. Am I missing something? 

 
All I can say to Br777 is, "WOW!" I seem to be coming to the same place that you, with a lot more EXPENSIVE experience, have already arrived at. I'm looking at at a Cowon J3 and a good set of closed phones, the new Senn Amperior for now, maybe an Ultrasone Sig Pro down the road. It is a shame, because I always thought the basic principle of higher quality electronics producing a nice accurate, smooth, powerful analog signal from  a digital source was sound. Your real life testing is compelling. JDS Labs will soon be combining NwAvGuys O2 amp with his dac in a single unit and I might try that for my desktop. But I'm going to take what you say to heart. I have heard a lot of people praise the Sansa products and that Cowon as well. Thanks!