[leeperry]

they sell you a licence when you buy DRM'ed music or a brand new CD, but you buy a licence-free medium when you get used CD's....major loophole, sorry for the breaking news. many software companies don't allow the end-user to sell his licence FWIW.
 
and what matters here is not the "music industry", it's the "record companies"...your average second hand CD shop is most likely not part of their plan.

 

[waterlogic]

Piracy of any kind is the product of the society we live in.
There are marginal problems and there are severe problems. Severe problems would be much easier to solve but as long people are deluded in solving marginal problems (I take music piracy is one of those) there is a a huge space left for legalised crime hurting this planet to unbearable extents. Multinational companies are legaly allowed to rip off and torture the people inflicting genocide and all this is business as usual backed by corrupted goverments, oligarchies "official" law.
Monsanto comes to mind with their satanic invention: "copyright on life" as well as the biggest pharmaceutical organisations poisoning the people at huge margins.

 

[krmathis]

Well done documentary!
Music piracy have been around for decades and I doubt it will ever go away. The artists and record labels simple have to make it easier available online for less money. CDs are $35 new up here, which is just insane - no wonder people go online and download for free through P2P.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

they sell you a licence when you buy DRM'ed music or a brand new CD, but you buy a licence-free medium when you get used CD's....major loophole, sorry for the breaking news. many software companies don't allow the end-user to sell his licence FWIW.
 
and what matters here is not the "music industry", it's the "record companies"...your average second hand CD shop is most likely not part of their plan.

I am sorry but I don't see what this has to with piracy. I say that the music industry accepts the second hand market for CDs as I have never heard of a second hand shop being pursued for any licensing infringements or whatever. 
 
Quote:

Piracy of any kind is the product of the society we live in.
There are marginal problems and there are severe problems. Severe problems would be much easier to solve but as long people are deluded in solving marginal problems (I take music piracy is one of those) there is a a huge space left for legalised crime hurting this planet to unbearable extents. Multinational companies are legaly allowed to rip off and torture the people inflicting genocide and all this is business as usual backed by corrupted goverments, oligarchies "official" law.
Monsanto comes to mind with their satanic invention: "copyright on life" as well as the biggest pharmaceutical organisations poisoning the people at huge margins.

Copying of CDs and DVDs is big business for Organised Crime Groups because it is often given a low priority by law enforcement agencies. 

 

[Ham Sandwich]

 
Quote:

I am sorry but I don't see what this has to with piracy. I say that the music industry accepts the second hand market for CDs as I have never heard of a second hand shop being pursued for any licensing infringements or whatever. 
 

The music industrial complex accepts the second hand CD market because they have to because of the First-sale doctrine.  You don't get first-sale rights with a digital download from iTunes, Amazon or wherever because those rights get licensed away in the sale agreement. 
 
One of the reasons I buy CDs (usually used) is because I own them to the extent that I can resell them, trade them, give them away as gifts, whatever.  CDs also give me a lossless copy of the music.  I don't get that with digital downloads, even the high res lossless digital downloads.
 
I'm not excited about a future where all music is digital downloads and CDs and other physical media no longer exists.  Good-bye used market.  So long first-sale.  A future with no used music market is not a future that I want.  That's a future that will drive people to piracy just to get the music.  Buy new at full price or don't buy at all and pirate, or make do with subscription services where your music collection goes away when the subscription runs out.
 
I'm not making any implications that the used CD market justifies piracy in any way because the artist doesn't get additional money in either case.  I'm just saying that the artist doesn't gain much from the used market other than the original sale.  That original sale is better than they get from piracy.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

 

The music industrial complex accepts the second hand CD market because they have to because of the First-sale doctrine.  You don't get first-sale rights with a digital download from iTunes, Amazon or wherever because those rights get licensed away in the sale agreement. 
 
One of the reasons I buy CDs (usually used) is because I own them to the extent that I can resell them, trade them, give them away as gifts, whatever.  CDs also give me a lossless copy of the music.  I don't get that with digital downloads, even the high res lossless digital downloads.
 
I'm not excited about a future where all music is digital downloads and CDs and other physical media no longer exists.  Good-bye used market.  So long first-sale.  A future with no used music market is not a future that I want.  That's a future that will drive people to piracy just to get the music.  Buy new at full price or don't buy at all and pirate, or make do with subscription services where your music collection goes away when the subscription runs out.
 
I'm not making any implications that the used CD market justifies piracy in any way because the artist doesn't get additional money in either case.  I'm just saying that the artist doesn't gain much from the used market other than the original sale.  That original sale is better than they get from piracy.

I hope leeperry reads the part about first sale doctrine, realises he is barking up the wrong tree and the second market has nothing to do with piracy.
 
Regarding the part I have put into bold, I see the future as either very cheap to access streamed music (£10 a month with Spotify Premium) or free to access with adverts (such as Grooveshark, We7, Spotify basic). When we can all access 'new' music, we don't need a second hand market anymore and there is absolutely no reason or justification for piracy.

 

[rhythmdevils]

It's just too expensive.  I think it's as simple as that.  CD's are not worth even 10 dollars, especially when you don't even know if you'll like the music yet.  i've bought a lot of CD's that I only listened to once or twice. 
 
And I can't think of many other purchases where the creator gets so little money. 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Ham Sandwich and rhythmdevils, are your posts meant to be arguments to justify stealing? Can I say that something is too expensive and there is no second hand market as a reason to steal your property?

 

[rhythmdevils]

I agree that technically it is stealing.  But it is stealing to the extent that it is technically a lie to tell someone they look pretty in a dress when they really do not. 
 
I buy a lot of CD's, I'm not saying I don't.  But I know that when I buy an album, I'm buying it from a company (not the record store- I shop at independents) who legally stole it from the artist because the system is setup to benefit corporations and not artists, creators, inventors, etc.
 
I just wish there was a way to steal the album, and then give the artist some money. 

 

[JxK]

If you allow me to play devil's advocate...
 
Is music "piracy" any different from, say, recording a movie on TV. With digital recording (or even quick pausing with VHS) you can easily remove commercials. And with HDTV the quality is quite good. For that matter, speaking about quality, most people don't give a damn about it. A pair of ibuds and they are set. So what about watching/listening to music on youtube? You can get entire albums with just a few clicks. People can and do download from it as well. What about having a friend make a copy of a CD for you? Or copying his digital music collection for you? Happens all the time as well, and no one says a thing.
 
Piracy, whatever you think of it, isn't going away. It doesn't matter if you think it's unethical, or theft, or a crime. Ho hum, it won't make an iota of difference. The music industry, for it's own sake, should come to understand it sooner rather than later. The proverbial cat is out of he bag, and it isn't coming back in.  Instead, Big Music should focus their energies on the market that is actually willing to pay. That is to say, instead of focusing on teens (who lack cash to begin with) and producing and marketing transient pop and rap hits that only fade away a few months later, they should focus on the 40+ crowd. More neoclassical, more jazz, and the like. These people actually pay.
 
It is this crowd that tends to focus more on stuff that isn't mainstream as well, such as the Indie bands.  And for Indie artists, at least, I'd wager that piracy actually helps them, bringing in much needed exposure.

 

[Happy Camper]

When we were kids (mid 60s), we recorded from the radio, friends records, etc. It was of poor quality and usually the artist never heard of. We were really marketing the group through this practice. When we heard something we liked, we bought it. When the 70s came, the music industry started putting 5-6 songs (30 min) on a record and selling it at full fare. Many of those records only had one or two good songs on it, the rest was filler. We didn't charge the record companies for marketing their crap. Now that technology allows for easier transfer, some people get stupidly greedy and take everything they can get their hands on. That makes those who sample artists off of a P2P (with poor quality) as guilty as the profiteers? I've bought many a cd/dvd of groups I've never seen marketed here. Mostly Euro/Asian artists. The only way I have to hear them is through P2P. I am able to tell if I like it or not before buying. Not buying blindly with hopes that the cd is good or not.
 
The record companies have long since paid for their distribution systems and invest minimally for most artists marketing. Reminds me of taxes. Once a project has been paid for, the taxes keep getting charged, like the new released media. They put a buttload of money into those artists they choose to stir the public's interest. Problem today is the artist is pretty crappy and nobody wants the product. The audience they target has little income to buy their product.
 
Add to this merry go round the fact that formats have changed 5-6 times in my lifetime. They obsolete one and make you pay full price to replace it. I've bought several DSOTM formats since 73. Nothing fair about that. If they wanted to offer a good faith gesture to their customer, offer a sizable credit to turn in an old format. They won't do that though.
 
While I do appreciate the artist in this problem, I have no feeling of guilt if the record companies choose to want to keep the gravy train rolling and have the lobbying money to buy the law. They have done it to themselves by squeezing too tightly.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

I agree that technically it is stealing.  But it is stealing to the extent that it is technically a lie to tell someone they look pretty in a dress when they really do not. 
 
I buy a lot of CD's, I'm not saying I don't.  But I know that when I buy an album, I'm buying it from a company (not the record store- I shop at independents) who legally stole it from the artist because the system is setup to benefit corporations and not artists, creators, inventors, etc.
 
I just wish there was a way to steal the album, and then give the artist some money. 

 

So under some circumstances, the ones that will only benefit you no doubt, it is OK to lie and steal?!
 
Some companies have had rip off contracts with some artists and some have lost a ton on other artists who failed to make it. So for those artists who have been ripped off by their record company, lets make it worse and have their fans rip them off as well.
 
You want cheaper music and more money to go direct to the artist, so do I. So support them by buying or listening through their chosen means, which you can find on most My Space band websites and see them live.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Piracy means access to a computer and illegal sharing of files. If you have access to a computer to illegally share files, you have access to the world of streaming, which is the last format change there can be. Streaming is future proof. I have posted here and on other forums if anyone can think of a format change that will supersede streaming and the answer is nothing.
 
Piracy is nothing like recording a programme off the TV as you have paid to watch the programme through the TV licence in the UK and advertising. Piracy of music involves no payment for the product or exposure to adverts. I agree it is surprising that the recording of TV programmes allows you to easily skip the adverts. I think the TV companies have made a boob there. But, unlike piracy, skipping adverts is not illegal and is not theft.

 

[rhythmdevils]

who exactly is it benefiting when you buy a CD?

 

[Prog Rock Man]

The shop, the distributor, the recording studio, the record company, the recording artist, the songwriter, the CD manufacturer, the artist's agent/manager, the person who did the artwork for the CD and the people who are directly and indirectly involved as employees of all of the companies who are involved in the whole industry.