Do you really hear differences in cables?

[IstariAsuka]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover What reality is there besides what I experience? Again if they say cable A is better and I hear B and it sounds better to me; I buy B. Do you need somebody to test everything to tell you what to think and do? This isnt a life and death matter here, we are talking about a headphone cable. If there were accurate measurements that correlated with our hearing I would seek them out and use them which leads to......

Dude, why are you bashing WmAx, he's the one being reasonable here.

After all, we all know that people perceived the world as being flat. What reality was there besides that experience to them? It was obviously the truth, and all the flaws with the flat-world construction could obviously be chocked up to "unknown variables" and "flawed scientific testing," right? So, that means that people shouldn't have even bothered investigating, right? Because, well, those people were foolish, all they had to do was look out the window to see the true truth of the matter.

Just because you experience something a certain way does not make it the objective truth. Nor is experience the only important thing.

Say I decided that I really thought X $1000 amp sounded significantly better than Y $300 amp. If I new that, in fact, the two sounded identical, and that my experience was placebo, I would be GLAD--I'd be saving $700! And, knowing that, I'd be able to enjoy the cheaper amp just as much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover Tube amps have higher distortion so they must sound worse. Not in my experiences; no correlation.

This has no bearing on our current discussion. Tube amps provide a specific type of coloration that many find pleasing. But--and you guessed right!--these differences are measurable! Who'd have thought!? Whether you like thar particular type of distortion, coloration, etc. is up to you. However, in the case of cables, it's being argued that there are no measurable differences. That all you're hearing is placebo.

Oh, as an aside, I find it very amusing that you suggest that there is an unknown variable that we currently can't measure, a rather scientific idea, while simultaneously dismissing the role of science in this matter.

 

[sacd lover]

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[SanS]

all these cables manipulations - is a sort of magic (IMO)!
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=75156

 

[sacd lover]

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[Kurt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by WmAx How do I know this is a real difference of the cable or one that is based on psychological factors?

Well, that’s easy. In Real Life it is like that:

If the difference is subtle, it could be a psychological effect.

If the difference is big, then there is a difference.

BTW, you never answered the topic’s question, just coming for thread crapping.

 

[CRESCENDOPOWER]

You can have an I.Q. of 140, work for N.A.S.A., be a surgeon, lawyer, or even have a doctorates degree, but if you don’t know what to listen for you are never going to hear differences between cables.
Basically, it all comes down to experience, and whether, or not the equipment used is even good enough to replicate stereo imaging in the first place.
It seems funny to me that most of the people in this thread that are so skeptical don’t list their equipment in their profile, or some of the ones that do list it have junk.

 

[photographlondon]

Maybe Robdac's initial view has some validity - the aftermarket cables add a different flavour/colour to the sound, whether that is an improvement is probably a matter of taste.

Many people find the Senns dark and "veiled" (which I take to mean that the highs aren't as pronouced as many people like). Adding a cable that flavours the response towards more pronouced highs is one way of colouring the sound to individual taste.

 

[Sugano-san]

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Originally Posted by rodbac I'd like to say again not to confuse "difference" and "improvement"...

Thanks for the clarification.

The thread starter's question was only about "difference". My reply is: "Yes, I can hear the difference. And I believe anyone has the potential to do so."

Regarding "improvement": That's obviously a matter of taste. De gustibus non est disputandum. That's why some prefer the Zu, others the Cardas or the Equinox. That's what all the reviews on head-fi are about. But logically they presume that differences are in fact audible, and they try to evaluate those differences.

I prefer the Zu Cable Mobius for my HD 650s. I am convinced that the overwhelming majority of head-fiers agrees with me that there is a difference between the Zu cable and the stock cable. It may not be to everybody's taste though.

 

[boodi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sugano-san Thanks for the clarification. The thread starter's question was only about "difference". My reply is: "Yes, I can hear the difference. And I believe anyone has the potential to do so." Regarding "improvement": That's obviously a matter of taste. De gustibus non est disputandum. That's why some prefer the Zu, others the Cardas or the Equinox. That's what all the reviews on head-fi are about. But logically they presume that differences are in fact audible, and they try to evaluate those differences. I prefer the Zu Cable Mobius for my HD 650s. I am convinced that the overwhelming majority of head-fiers agrees with me that there is a difference between the Zu cable and the stock cable. It may not be to everybody's taste though.

I agree..

Anyway, again
I tried side by side the Headphile , the Cardas , the Zu and the SD cables .
EVERY cable shows a character , being one more detailed , the other more tuneful, the other again a bit more veiled. This are not things one imagine , this are things that one person might need to get ears learned on how to notice suddenly, but everyone with a normal hearing sense can notice in a short or longer period of let's call it adaptation.

ex.
Details are things you/you do not hear . You can pick up a 5 sec. orchestra work complex passage and re-run on the a and on the b setup how many time you want, till you know what your a setup is giving out and what your b setup is giving out detail wise.
Then you can define and tell the differences clearly.
This is an easy task and is not an Imo; it is what happen when you want to test the opennes to details.

 

[greenhorn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by WmAx Trivial? Yes and no. One can insert a resistor, capacitor or inductor somewhere to bring about audible signal change..... However, now the actual cable has nothing to do with the actual signal modification........ How do propose to 'trivially' induce large enough values of LCR values to change the signal audibly across a short distance cable? Use a 120AWG steel braid cable maybe to raise R to rediculous values? -Chris

Hi, Chris, interesting points. Would you accept to comment a bit on the Audiogeek Nitrogen interconnects, which, according to their designers, include exactly an additional element ("ProSink termination", IIRC)?

 

[markl]

It's so funny that it's always the people who have never tried a nice aftermarket cable that always insist they can't possibly do anything!

Also, there are cable differences/parameters/electrical properties that *are* currently measurable (i.e. inductance/capacitance).



There are also aspects of cables that aren't *yet* measurable (except by the most sensitive measuring device we have-- our ears). Before the invention of the thermometer, cable nay-sayers are the same people who would insist we have no way of knowing that it's getting colder despite the falling snow.



Enough said.

 

[Hirsch]

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Originally Posted by tiberian this thread is getting hilarious.

Don't they all, when it comes to testing?

In a statistical sense, any test of differences that shows a significant difference is designed to do that, but only that. If a DBT shows a difference with a significance level of 0.05, then there's actually a strong probability that the difference is real (nineteen chances out of twenty, actually. It could still be experimental error). However routine statistical analysis says nothing about whether or not failure to find a significant difference in a DBT means that no difference is present. That requires an entirely different type of statistical analysis. This lapse in understanding experimental design is where all of these arguments fall apart.

It gets even more complicated when you consider the capabilities and nature of perceptual systems. For example, inhibitory output from the brain can gate perceptual input. So, there may well be physical differences between stimuli that sensory receptors can detect, and yet don't trigger a response in the brain (and are therefore unheard). Not all real differences are even detected. Makes it complicated, no? You've got to understand a system before you can study it.

 

[Canman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hirsch Don't they all, when it comes to testing?

Chris, You've made your argument clear. The subjectivists who don't give a damn have also made themselves clear.

The true objectivist will seek to design an experiment in which to test a hypothesis. Do you think that you are going to change peoples' minds who believe that they can hear a difference between cables just because a realistic scientific test hasn't been designed to prove them right or wrong?

Further argument is a waste of words unless you are willing to take the initiniative to help organize and design an actual experiment to prove your hypothesis.

 

[boodi]

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Originally Posted by sacd lover Given that this whole thread was based on the question," do you hear a difference in cables"

.. lol
i hope this threads ( quite a multitudo of them, and quite always the same typology of debate ) will be over in ...let's say ..some decades ..but who can say ?..
I'll check back in 2050 on head-fi if there's still so much a big fuss around senn aftermarket cables , one of a thing that lately has assumed exotics traits, and is one of the most debated too.. I would expect some other 5 aftm. cables to be retailed in the next 2 years too..

 

[IstariAsuka]

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Originally Posted by markl It's so funny that it's always the people who have never tried a nice aftermarket cable that always insist they can't possibly do anything!

Sorry, I was just defending WmAx, since I felt he was being unjustly attacked for his opinion. Also, pointing out that tube amps are not really relavent to cables, and that science *does* have a place.

Now, personally I do believe that there are differences in cables, despite having not heard the different cables. Why? Because otherwise it seems unlikely that people will generally come to the same concensus on silver vs copper cables, even without outsiders telling them those differences. Also, the fact that people perceive more than just 2 cables as all different from each other, and not always just varying degrees of "better" or "worse".

However, it would be interesting and useful to run tests to see to what extent the differences are actually placebo, and how much real, and what measurements most accurately reflect hearing differences.