Do amps really have different signatures?

[wuwhere]

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Ideally, an amp doesn't add or subtract anything from the sound. I think most audiophiles are more interested in clean sound than colored sound. Tubes are more of a fetish object. They look nice glowing.

 
A properly designed amp does not add or subtract, I agree. No amp designer in their right mind will either. Yet they sound different. Yet tubes are preferred over transistors. Tubes are colored, so what, I came here to listen for non-fatiguing sound, which by the way most here crave for.

 

[firev1]

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Don't get an old CD player. A cheap $120 Sony bluray player sounds just as good as any player out there, and it plays SACDs too.

Probably get another BDP-S390/380 then, damn those things are way under cost for the quality! Almost forgot about the SACDs in my collection.  
 
wuwhere, try eqing a treble roll of. The only reason ss gear is fatiguing because a bunch of music has strident highs in the first place. Speaking about fatigue, a large bunch of studio engineers demand equipment that is revealing yet non fatiguing for most of their work, sure there is the occasional NS10M or other fatiguing references yet, majority of them prefer using SS for monitoring rather than tube equipment for speaker amping(if they are using passives, modern studios use actives but still transistor based)

 

[wuwhere]

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Probably get another BDP-S390/380 then, damn those things are way under cost for the quality! Almost forgot about the SACDs in my collection.  
 
wuwhere, try eqing a treble roll of. The only reason ss gear is fatiguing because a bunch of music has strident highs in the first place. Speaking about fatigue, a large bunch of studio engineers demand equipment that is revealing yet non fatiguing for most of their work, sure there is the occasional NS10M or other fatiguing references yet, majority of them prefer using SS for monitoring rather than tube equipment for speaker amping(if they are using passives, modern studios use actives but still transistor based)

 
I listen to the same music, ss or tube with no eq, my tube amp sounds better. You should hear it.

 

[bigshot]

Personally, i think people who complain about listening fatigue are listening to tiresome music. I have a flat response in my system and classical sounds wonderful, and jazz makes me happy. If you have to color your sound, your music is strident, the amp isn't the problem.

 

[wuwhere]

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Personally, i think people who complain about listening fatigue are listening to tiresome music. I have a flat response in my system and classical sounds wonderful, and jazz makes me happy. If you have to roll off the high end, your music is strident, not your amp.

 
Exactly, tubes are not rolled off nor euphonic, perhaps the really old tube amps made in the 60's or 70's. But this puzzles me, I use GE 6550 tubes made way back when and I use Tung Sol 6550s reissues made today and the GEs' bass is deeper.

 

[wuwhere]

Nobody has figured this out, not anyone here.

 

[bigshot]

I don't want deeper bass. I want more accurate bass.

 

[wuwhere]

I've always wondered, reading audio reviews, how they can say one is accurate over the other by just listening on a recording when that recording was made without their presence?
 
What is accurate bass on a recording?

 

[Citan]

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A properly designed amp does not add or subtract, I agree. No amp designer in their right mind will either. Yet they sound different. Yet tubes are preferred over transistors. Tubes are colored, so what, I came here to listen for non-fatiguing sound, which by the way most here crave for.

I can't understand how an amp could neither add nor subtract from a signal yet at the same time change the signal to such a degree that there was an audible difference.

 

[firev1]

I've always wondered, reading audio reviews, how they can say one is accurate over the other by just listening on a recording when that recording was made without their presence?
 
What is accurate bass on a recording?

A lot of reviewers don't really have a accurate bass reference but by comparing headphone A to B I guess one can say that bass is tighter. As for accurate, I would take a really huge pinch of salt when reviewers mention neutral or accurate.

 

[bigshot]

There are more accurate amps in this world than accurate reviewers.

 

[Clarkmc2]

I can't understand how an amp could neithuier add nor subtract from a signal yet at the same time change the signal to such a degree that there was an audible difference.

It can't be understood because it is impossible. A corrilary is that the electrical signal from any part of the signal chain must change to produce a change in the sound of the speaker/headphone, so testing for differences in electrical signals is definitive. Whereas listening tests are not, and offer reassurance but no proof. That this continues to be argued about is a monument to human gullibility.

Listening tests are for speakers and headphones, not tweaks in the upstream gear. You can't take the human fudge factor out of listening, and the fudge is a larger factor than subtle differences. And that is where "I know what I hear" claims go to die. The problem is, on audio forums they live on anyway, quite zombie like.

 

[qusp]

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It can't be understood because it is impossible. A corrilary is that the electrical signal from any part of the signal chain must change to produce a change in the sound of the speaker/headphone, so testing for differences in electrical signals is definitive. Whereas listening tests are not, and offer reassurance but no proof. That this continues to be argued about is a monument to human gullibility.

not true in the slightest… The electrical ability or inability of one amp to drive a certain  (perhaps difficult) low impedance load, with sufficient voltage swing, sufficient current and its ability to deal with a capacitive or inductive load, is all down to the characteristics of the circuit and/or components in the chain. It doesnt have to change the signal to be evident, when driving a high impedance measurement preamp input the 2 signal outputs/waveforms will be identical on the scope. When driving a difficult reactive load they may produce quite different results. IMO your view is way too simplified and thus false.
 
These scenarios can be emulated with carefully set up loaded testing and will show the differences, its not magic, however standard DNR or THD testing as performed by many will miss the point entirely. such differences could quite easily be audible

 

[Clarkmc2]

I guess, though I don't know why, I need to mention that if you want to find the differences of the electrical output into a load, you measure the electrical output into the load. What did you think I was saying, to measure it going into tropical fruit?

There is voltage and current at that interface, just like at any other point in an active circuit. And like most places, it is going and coming. The interactions between the amp and the load will be manifest at that point. So of course that is where you measure it. At the output. Good grief, I am so done here.

 

[qusp]

Quote:

I guess, though I don't know why, I need to mention that if you want to find the differences of the electrical output into a load, you measure the electrical output into the load. What did you think I was saying, to measure it going into tropical fruit?
There is voltage and current at that interface, just like at any other point in an active circuit. And like most places, it is going and coming. The interactions between the amp and the load will be manifest at that point. So of course that is where you measure it. At the output. Good grief, I am so done here.

did I say it couldnt be measured? i'm simply saying that most (not all) of these type of comparisons or claims that things should sound the same, completely disregard the interaction with the particular reactive and dynamic loading of the whole system. testing the amp, mostly at best with a static resistive load is inadequate. its not changing the signal, the signal is the same, the ability to drive that signal into the load is changed, that is where the difference between amps is.
 
i'm not a tube guy in general either, but i've been forced to reconsider my opinion of tube amps after being exposed to a pair of O2 MkII and a diy BHSE and DIY T2, the BHSE is a hybrid, the T2 is all tubes. The T2 was the better, more transparent amp, quite an incredible amp actually. as devices properly implemented they are actually pretty darn linear, perhaps even more linear than simple discrete solid state amps. to call them coloured in general isnt really very accurate and is usually a claim made by people who dont know the first thing about tube amps
 
it just so happens that most tube amps and tube lovers actually like the coloration they produce when used in low overall feedback designs and they are rarely used in designs with large amounts of feedback. it really isnt because its a tube, a mosfet or jfet with low overall feedback produces some comfy coloration as well