Do amps really have different signatures?

[wuwhere]

I don't believe in faith. I trust my instinct. Yea like manufacturing test racks using NI. I used to do that LabVIEW stuff. I still believe that audio's golden decades were the '80s and '90s, mostly '90s for me since that was when I got into it, mostly. Amp technology is the same, except for opamps.

 

[bigshot]

Even a 0.1dB difference is audible, so says Bob Katz who wrote the book on mastering.

No it isn't. Go test it with a sound program yourself. The decimal point is in the wrong place.

The decibel scale was designed so a decibel was the smallest perceptable difference. You can hear a decibel, but only in a direct A/B comparison using test tones. On a good day with sharp ears, you might be able to hear a little less than that. But not that much less.

Amps with specs within the range of 20-20 +/-.5dB are audibly identical for the purposes of playing music.

 

[bigshot]

Would you fly on a jet plane that was only tested on simulation to take off? Did they simulate the landing? Would you buy an amp for your > $20k speakers simulated tested? .

I would go to Amazon and buy any of a hundred different amps that would all work just as well with the speakers.

 

[wuwhere]

Quote:

I would go to Amazon and buy any of a hundred different amps that would all work just as well with the speakers.

 
I've bought stuff from Amazon, BUT not the amps that I own.

 

[bigshot]

If you had, your stereo wouldn't sound any different.

 

[wuwhere]

Quote:

If you had, your stereo wouldn't sound any different.

 
Not sure what you meant. I have two different brands of tube amplifiers, one made by Audio Research, the other mad by Copland. Both have the same power output, 50 to 60 wpc. Using the same output tubes, 4 GE6550, 2/channel, they sound different. The Audio Research sounds more immediate, the Copland more laidback.
 
Now let me ask you a question, have you had tube amps before?
 
Now this is what blows me away, I put in there Tung Sol 6550s reissues, the GE's bass just blows it away, in both amps.

 

[dvw]

Quote:

 
Not sure what you meant. I have two different brands of tube amplifiers, one made by Audio Research, the other mad by Copland. Both have the same power output, 50 to 60 wpc. Using the same output tubes, 4 GE6550, 2/channel, they sound different. The Audio Research sounds more immediate, the Copland more laidback.
 
Now let me ask you a question, have you had tube amps before?
 
Now this is what blows me away, I put in there Tung Sol 6550s reissues, the GE's bass just blows it away, in both amps.

I think tube amp is the lone exception. These are boutique designs with transformer output or OTL topology. They all have an impact on sound. However, their measurement will also show a non-flat response. Many have mid range hump and some have higher 2nd order harmonic distortion. The age of the tube can also make a difference. In short, they got a lot of color and unique personality. But these imperfection can also be replicated. Bob Carver did exactly that in the 90s. I have a software program that will take the wave file and add tube sound to it. Now you have the tube sound to go.
 
Audio amp are not rocket science. With today's mass production at super low cost, everyone are using the similar chip and similar design with ruler flat FR and in the mud distortion. Of course they sound the same. 
 
Your mention of AR brings back memory. I used to work for Teledyne which owns AR. I almost bought an AR9 because of 60% employee discount. I didn't do it because I have to pick it up and the shipping was expensive. I still regret it.

 

[Steve Eddy]

"Sound different" and "audibly different" are not one and the same.
 
People have put photographs of themselves in their freezers and reported that their system "sounds different." It's trivially easy to get people to report something "sounding different" even when absolutely nothing has changed.
 
se

 

[dvw]

BTW, today's op amp design have better control can have better tolerance on the component used. Tube design of yesteryear could have less tolerance and are more likely to be sensitive to tube rolling. I don't know the exact spec of the tube you're using, but the gain difference could differ by 100 to 300%.

 

[bigshot]

Now let me ask you a question, have you had tube amps before?

I grew up at the end of the era of tube amps. My dad and I built one from a kit. I remember tube testers in Thrifty Drug Stores, and I remember how hot our old TV got and how it smelled when the dust on the tubes burned. I remember how they acted squirrly and sometimes changed the way they worked after they warmed up or when a tube started to fail.

I would never ever ever EVER go back to that.

My Yamaha receiver outperforms any tube amp. It gives me consistent, dependable, transparent sound with oodles of power. It allows me to calibrate the EQ of my speakers to .5 dB accuracy, and every time I turn it on, it's exactly the same. It handles 5:1 sound that blows the pants off any two channel system at any price.

I know all sound formats. I know about acoustic and electric 78s, LPs, wire recorders, reel to reel, 8 tracks, cassettes, CDs and SACDs. They all had their charms. But my Mac Mini server packed with AAC files is better than all of them put together. And my solid state amp is ten times better than my brother's McIntosh from back in the day.

Technology has gotten so much better, I feel absolutely no affection for obsolete formats and inferior components.

 

[wuwhere]

ARC (audio research corporation) not AR (audio research). AR is a much bigger company then.
I remember reading about that Carver thing.
 
Anyway, why does tube sound, well different and pleasing. And there are philes who love this sound, regardless of accuracy.
 
Yet, there are no philes who sought vintage transistor sound?

 

[wuwhere]

Well I can just imagine some poor soul looking for some mosfets for their Counterpoint hybrid.

 

[bigshot]

Ideally, an amp doesn't add or subtract anything from the sound. I think most audiophiles are more interested in clean sound than colored sound. Tubes are more of a fetish object. They look nice glowing.

 

[firev1]

Quote:

ARC (audio research corporation) not AR (audio research). AR is a much bigger company then.
I remember reading about that Carver thing.
 
Anyway, why does tube sound, well different and pleasing. And there are philes who love this sound, regardless of accuracy.
 
Yet, there are no philes who sought vintage transistor sound?

Transistors are so much better these days than in the past, why would anyone go back to those days? That being said, although its a niche, go look at the vintage receiver section. Mostly transistor based no? I'm looking for a old cd player currently to migrate my BDP to the living room. There is a demand, albeit much smaller than the NOS community.

 

[bigshot]

Don't get an old CD player. A cheap $120 Sony bluray player sounds just as good as any player out there, and it plays SACDs too.