3x331m
Headphoneus Supremus
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If someone says that all amps sound the same, then why is that person lurking around Head-Fi collecting information ?
Do amplifiers sound the same?
- Thread starter mbriant
- Start date
Gurra1980
1000+ Head-Fier
I'm afraid that i'm going to be dissapointed if i buy an amp, that there is no differens to my iriver's internal. This doesn't seem to be only a thing with amplifiers, have seen numerous blindtest comparing Lossy fileformats to lossles and never can people hear any real difference over 192Kbps good encoded music.
Placeboeffect! I'm a hypocondria so i know what expectation can make you feel and experience
Placeboeffect! I'm a hypocondria so i know what expectation can make you feel and experience
TKO
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mbriant - thank you for the informative and articulate post. My sentiments exactly. As someone who is fully aware of the ground-breaking research into loudspeakers that was conducted by Dr. Toole and the others at the NRC here in Ottawa, including the majority of the audio engineers in Canada, who participated in this research and then went on to develop world-class speakers, their science CAN NOT be questioned (as it applies to DBT involving loudspeakers). If the Audio Engineering Society can't prove a difference between amplifiers with the amplifier test conditions listed below, no one can. Can't imagine a anechoic chamber for headphones 
Cheers.
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Cheers.
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| Originally Posted by mbriant /img/forum/go_quote.gif -First, let me say that I personally tend to be sceptical when it comes to certain claims made by some manufacturers, retailers, and audiophiles. I, like some others, usually prefer objective measurements to subjective observations. I do still try to keep an open mind however, as I realize that everyone hears differently, some are better trained/experienced as to what to listen for, and everyone listens to a different combination of equipment. In the past couple of days I've noticed a couple of members who have argued that amplifiers all sound the same and have used the following article written by Ian Masters to support their argument. http://www.mastersonaudio.com/audio/20020901.htm I know Ian Masters personally. He was a contributing editor for many years, and for a short period, editor of a Canadian audio magazine I used to publish. The editorial team of that magazine were very much in the objectivist camp. I'm familiar with the events and the people he refers to in that particular article. After re-reading what he had to say, it occurred to me that his abbreviated rendition of those various tests which were conducted many years ago, were somewhat misleading as they did not tell the entire story. I haven't spoken to Ian in 10 years, but still keep in regular contact with a friend and mutual associate, Alan Lofft, who also was a long time editor of the magazine and who worked very closely for many years with Ian Masters. In fact, Alan participated in some of the testing Ian mentions in the article I've linked above. Both of these men have been full-time professional audio journalists and reviewers for several decades. I've witnessed many and even participated in a couple of their extensive double blind listening sessions conducted under strict scientific supervision at the National Research Council in Ottawa. I can say without hesitation that they are serious about their work and they do know their stuff. After seeing Ian's article being used to "prove" that all amplifiers sound the same, I contacted Alan Lofft yesterday to get some clarification. The following are some excerpts from his correspondence: But here is the crucial part that makes the above comments and Ian Master's article completely inapplicable to the recent headphone amp discussions that have been carried out here during the past couple of days. Remember that when Alan says "My comments", this can also be applied to Ian Master's comments as well ... both these gentlemen participated in that testing and both are in agreement regarding this particular subject. You will not likely find anyone with a more objectivist outlook than Ian and Alan, and yet Alan is effectively saying that with headphone amplifiers at least, there WILL be noticable, audible differences between various amps and headphones. Again, since Ian's article was being used incorrectly to argue that headphone amps all sound the same, I felt it was important to clear this up. I would imagine that any other articles making similar claims, also refer to power amps for loudspeakers ... not headphone amps. |
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Um ... if output stage and amplification is 'sub-par' and no better then the quality you would get with 192Kbps encoding, you're not going to be able to hear the quality of lossless encoding. I wouldn't ever put any stake into a statment like that w/o knowing every component and method utilized in reproduction.
| Originally Posted by Gurra1980 /img/forum/go_quote.gif This doesn't seem to be only a thing with amplifiers, have seen numerous blindtest comparing Lossy fileformats to lossles and never can people hear any real difference over 192Kbps good encoded music. |
Um ... if output stage and amplification is 'sub-par' and no better then the quality you would get with 192Kbps encoding, you're not going to be able to hear the quality of lossless encoding. I wouldn't ever put any stake into a statment like that w/o knowing every component and method utilized in reproduction.
Different amplifiers measure differently, so why should they sound the same?
This audio thing is getting to be too much for me! Amplifiers measure differently but sound the same, and cables measure the same but sound different!
(according to some people, not me. I think speaker amps can sound different because I've heard speaker amps sounding different. I haven't heard a cable make a difference yet)
This audio thing is getting to be too much for me! Amplifiers measure differently but sound the same, and cables measure the same but sound different!
(according to some people, not me. I think speaker amps can sound different because I've heard speaker amps sounding different. I haven't heard a cable make a difference yet)
Janus
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Human perception is often underestimated. Machines may measure one dimension very accurately, but it is the multidimensional aspect that we are looking at.
When I am painting, I do not care for the perfect wavelength to reproduce a color, it is the value; more precisely, the value against another frame of refernce that lets our minds construct a true color.
Maybe an amplified signal is accurate across the whole spectrum within 1% or even .1%, whatever machines are capable of. But it is actually the many smaller values, and their whole interaction that piques each of our brains. A machine sees and averate over a sector, but our brains see differences each thousanths of a second (whatever neurons are capable of).
The microdynamics of the sound is what we percieve as a difference and color. Machines don't see that. Sometimes our brain perform (for lack of another example), a fourier analysis. It will take all the little differences in each frequency. Maybe all those "distortions" are simplified in our brain through that process, and out minds interpret that as a coloration or alteration of timbre.
The study of psychoacoustics is only as transparent as the modern understanding of the human brain.
When I am painting, I do not care for the perfect wavelength to reproduce a color, it is the value; more precisely, the value against another frame of refernce that lets our minds construct a true color.
Maybe an amplified signal is accurate across the whole spectrum within 1% or even .1%, whatever machines are capable of. But it is actually the many smaller values, and their whole interaction that piques each of our brains. A machine sees and averate over a sector, but our brains see differences each thousanths of a second (whatever neurons are capable of).
The microdynamics of the sound is what we percieve as a difference and color. Machines don't see that. Sometimes our brain perform (for lack of another example), a fourier analysis. It will take all the little differences in each frequency. Maybe all those "distortions" are simplified in our brain through that process, and out minds interpret that as a coloration or alteration of timbre.
The study of psychoacoustics is only as transparent as the modern understanding of the human brain.
John_M
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Thanks for starting up a dedicated thread, mbriant. However, I do feel I've been misrepresented a few times in your post:
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If you reread the other thread, you'll see that this is slightly inaccurate. I didn't use Ian's article to "prove" that all amplifers sound the same. I used it several times to refute claims that "everyone who knows about audio believes there are major differences between amps." You yourself say that Ian "knows his stuff" - but he plainly does not believe in differences between amps. The claim that everyone who knows about audio believes in differences is therefore false. An important point, as this claim is a common response to any suggestion that the importance of amps to sound quality may have been exaggerated.
Ian's view isn't evidence that there are no differences between amps, but the DBTs he has participated in are. So are the other DBTs not involving him. Which brings me to your next point: what Alan Lofft said.
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I would read that as saying that the test does not prove that amps do not impact on headphones. I think you're stretching Alan's comments too far when you say "Alan is effectively saying that with headphone amplifiers at least, there WILL be noticable, audible differences." I'd read Alan as saying that there is a good case for saying there will be differences, not as saying that there undoubtedly will be differences. That said, there's certainly a valid point in there. From what I recall, none of the DBTs I've seen was run using headphones. It would be interesting to see if using headphones rather than speakers produced different results.
However, one thing that does spring to mind is that headphone.com suggested to me that even their specialist headphone-measuring apparatus hadn't revealed any meaningful difference between amps. So if headphones do reveal inherent differences, we may still be in the realm of differences which do not show up in measurements but can be heard by the human ear. I'm not ruling out the existence of such differences, but there's a lot to be proved.
Proof is the key point. I've heard a lot of people insisting earnestly that differences do exist, but I don't believe these people have been particularly methodical in their approach. That is, they listen without controlling for volume differences and/or without controlling against "experimenter expectancy." In view of this, it's hardly surprising that most people on here claim such major differences whereas the DBTs, which are carried out under proper test conditions, reveal no differences whatsoever (at least when speakers are used).
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Ian is Ian. Alan is Alan. You can't say that, because both participated in the same test, a view expressed by Alan a couple of days ago can be "attributed" to Ian. There's a bit of logic-chopping going on here. You say "both are in agreement regarding this particular subject" but you haven't provided any evidence that Ian accepts that differences between amps show up when you listen through headphones. I think Ian's email address is available on his site - I'll email him and see what he thinks.
One more point. I can now only connect to this site via a proxy - if I connect direct, my browser says "access forbidden." I hope nobody's tried to ban me - I've tried to stay polite and reasonable (unlike several of the posters with more "acceptable" views!) My username at least is still alive, although I can't help but wonder how long this will continue. Maybe I'm just being paranoid.
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| In the past couple of days I've noticed a couple of members who have argued that amplifiers all sound the same and have used the following article written by Ian Masters to support their argument. |
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| After seeing Ian's article being used to "prove" that all amplifiers sound the same |
If you reread the other thread, you'll see that this is slightly inaccurate. I didn't use Ian's article to "prove" that all amplifers sound the same. I used it several times to refute claims that "everyone who knows about audio believes there are major differences between amps." You yourself say that Ian "knows his stuff" - but he plainly does not believe in differences between amps. The claim that everyone who knows about audio believes in differences is therefore false. An important point, as this claim is a common response to any suggestion that the importance of amps to sound quality may have been exaggerated.
Ian's view isn't evidence that there are no differences between amps, but the DBTs he has participated in are. So are the other DBTs not involving him. Which brings me to your next point: what Alan Lofft said.
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| My comments apply ONLY to loudspeakers driven by well designed transistor or tube amplifiers--the ones that were in the test. Headphone impedances are all over the map, and the potential for interaction with tube output impedances (and resulting changes in frequency response) are great. |
I would read that as saying that the test does not prove that amps do not impact on headphones. I think you're stretching Alan's comments too far when you say "Alan is effectively saying that with headphone amplifiers at least, there WILL be noticable, audible differences." I'd read Alan as saying that there is a good case for saying there will be differences, not as saying that there undoubtedly will be differences. That said, there's certainly a valid point in there. From what I recall, none of the DBTs I've seen was run using headphones. It would be interesting to see if using headphones rather than speakers produced different results.
However, one thing that does spring to mind is that headphone.com suggested to me that even their specialist headphone-measuring apparatus hadn't revealed any meaningful difference between amps. So if headphones do reveal inherent differences, we may still be in the realm of differences which do not show up in measurements but can be heard by the human ear. I'm not ruling out the existence of such differences, but there's a lot to be proved.
Proof is the key point. I've heard a lot of people insisting earnestly that differences do exist, but I don't believe these people have been particularly methodical in their approach. That is, they listen without controlling for volume differences and/or without controlling against "experimenter expectancy." In view of this, it's hardly surprising that most people on here claim such major differences whereas the DBTs, which are carried out under proper test conditions, reveal no differences whatsoever (at least when speakers are used).
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| Remember that when Alan says "My comments", this can also be applied to Ian Master's comments as well ... both these gentlemen participated in that testing and both are in agreement regarding this particular subject. |
Ian is Ian. Alan is Alan. You can't say that, because both participated in the same test, a view expressed by Alan a couple of days ago can be "attributed" to Ian. There's a bit of logic-chopping going on here. You say "both are in agreement regarding this particular subject" but you haven't provided any evidence that Ian accepts that differences between amps show up when you listen through headphones. I think Ian's email address is available on his site - I'll email him and see what he thinks.
One more point. I can now only connect to this site via a proxy - if I connect direct, my browser says "access forbidden." I hope nobody's tried to ban me - I've tried to stay polite and reasonable (unlike several of the posters with more "acceptable" views!) My username at least is still alive, although I can't help but wonder how long this will continue. Maybe I'm just being paranoid.
PhilS
Headphoneus Supremus
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I got a phone call today at my office from a young woman asking for my credit card number. I determined rather quickly, based solely on the sound of the person's voice, that it was my daughter. I gave her my credit card number. This was probably foolish, as I had no "proof" other than the sound of her voice that it was her. I should have been more methodical in my approach, I guess.
John, in all seriousness, the frustration that many of us have with your position is that you have not been very methodical in your approach because you haven't listened. If you were to gain any siginfiant experience listening, I submit that you would not suggest that every headphone amp sounds the same and there is no "proof" otherwise. Again, just as an example, listening to various tube amps and tubes compels the conclusion being advanced by the rest of us. It is not a close case. Now, whether well-constructed solid state amps played through speakers under certain parameters sound the same is a different issue. But to suggest that all amps sound the same period is ridiculous and, indeed, the DBT's don't even say that!
I know your point may be that there is no "proof" that amps sound different if you exclude the claims people make that they have heard differences, but we accept as true many things during our daily lives for which we do not have absolute scientific "proof" (see example above). And please note that this is not a scientific forum, designed to provide "proof" of every claimed audible difference. It is a hobbyists' forum. And in this context, I think you are out of line, and showing bad judgment, to state that we should not be advising people about what amps might sound good with their cans because we don't have "proof" -- other than years of listening experience -- that they sound different.
On the other hand, if you listen to the K701 through a Singlepower amp with a 6414 tube in the gain position and a pair of 5687's in the driver position, and then you change the tubes out to 6SN7's, and if you decide they sound exactly the same, then do come back on the forum and say all amps sound the same and we have no "proof." And then we can talk about it. But I am betting we will never hear you say that.
| Originally Posted by John_M /img/forum/go_quote.gif Proof is the key point. I've heard a lot of people insisting earnestly that differences do exist, but I don't believe these people have been particularly methodical in their approach. |
I got a phone call today at my office from a young woman asking for my credit card number. I determined rather quickly, based solely on the sound of the person's voice, that it was my daughter. I gave her my credit card number. This was probably foolish, as I had no "proof" other than the sound of her voice that it was her. I should have been more methodical in my approach, I guess.
John, in all seriousness, the frustration that many of us have with your position is that you have not been very methodical in your approach because you haven't listened. If you were to gain any siginfiant experience listening, I submit that you would not suggest that every headphone amp sounds the same and there is no "proof" otherwise. Again, just as an example, listening to various tube amps and tubes compels the conclusion being advanced by the rest of us. It is not a close case. Now, whether well-constructed solid state amps played through speakers under certain parameters sound the same is a different issue. But to suggest that all amps sound the same period is ridiculous and, indeed, the DBT's don't even say that!
I know your point may be that there is no "proof" that amps sound different if you exclude the claims people make that they have heard differences, but we accept as true many things during our daily lives for which we do not have absolute scientific "proof" (see example above). And please note that this is not a scientific forum, designed to provide "proof" of every claimed audible difference. It is a hobbyists' forum. And in this context, I think you are out of line, and showing bad judgment, to state that we should not be advising people about what amps might sound good with their cans because we don't have "proof" -- other than years of listening experience -- that they sound different.
On the other hand, if you listen to the K701 through a Singlepower amp with a 6414 tube in the gain position and a pair of 5687's in the driver position, and then you change the tubes out to 6SN7's, and if you decide they sound exactly the same, then do come back on the forum and say all amps sound the same and we have no "proof." And then we can talk about it. But I am betting we will never hear you say that.
Janus
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Oh goodness John_M found this thread....I guess he is actively promoting his views...
Ok john what systems have you honestly listened to if any at all?
Ok john what systems have you honestly listened to if any at all?
finbad
Formerly known as Hi-Finthen
One more point. I can now only connect to this site via a proxy - if I connect direct, my browser says "access forbidden." I hope nobody's tried to ban me - I've tried to stay polite and reasonable (unlike several of the posters with more "acceptable" views!) My username at least is still alive, although I can't help but wonder how long this will continue. Maybe I'm just being paranoid.
You are obviously correct John_M... If you cannot connect directly to this site and instead recieve a blank page reading: "Access Forbidden" you have rightly concluded your temporary banned status should last one and one half hours, first occurance. Should you not follow the groupthink with regards to Amplifiers and / or Headphones, the peanalty will be far worse in you future than it has in your recent past (when calculated sonicly, so to speak)... The overlords of policy are watching and waiting for your decision to obey obviously; I am sure of it ;-}
You are obviously correct John_M... If you cannot connect directly to this site and instead recieve a blank page reading: "Access Forbidden" you have rightly concluded your temporary banned status should last one and one half hours, first occurance. Should you not follow the groupthink with regards to Amplifiers and / or Headphones, the peanalty will be far worse in you future than it has in your recent past (when calculated sonicly, so to speak)... The overlords of policy are watching and waiting for your decision to obey obviously; I am sure of it ;-}
All amplifiers sound the same.... since when? Since the 1920s (or whatever)? Since the 1990s?
I'd think there would have to be some cutoff. I fail to believe that amplifiers haven't improved since they were invented.. so when are we going to say that they stopped improving and started sounding all the same? Will a 60s SET tubey sound the same as a modern solid state? Has technology improved since then or did amp technology stop improving before the 60s?
I find it kinda hard to believe that a major shift in design philosophy from old simple class A tube designs to modern complex class AB (or class T, or class D) designs has not resulted in any change in sound.
Tube designs are known for having high distortion and being bad on paper, so why wouldn't they improve on this given the new technology?
Not that I'm expecting massive changes in sound, but small subtle changes
I'm certain that i've heard differences between SET tube amps and solid state amps, but sometimes in audio you cant trust your ears. While I'm a fan of DBTs, I'm not sure I trust the one in the original post. I'd at least need to see it repeated by a few different people. Plus i dont know what gear they compared and in what setting.
Seems that they took a lot of effort to make sure the amps didn't distort at all, but maybe it's the distortion characteristics of amplifiers that make them sound different. In fact, distortion is simply deviation from perfect flat sound, so if the amps aren't allowed to distort at all then they will all sound exactly the same........ but that's not a real world setting. In the real world amps distort, and it gives them a certain sound
I'd think there would have to be some cutoff. I fail to believe that amplifiers haven't improved since they were invented.. so when are we going to say that they stopped improving and started sounding all the same? Will a 60s SET tubey sound the same as a modern solid state? Has technology improved since then or did amp technology stop improving before the 60s?
I find it kinda hard to believe that a major shift in design philosophy from old simple class A tube designs to modern complex class AB (or class T, or class D) designs has not resulted in any change in sound.
Tube designs are known for having high distortion and being bad on paper, so why wouldn't they improve on this given the new technology?
Not that I'm expecting massive changes in sound, but small subtle changes
I'm certain that i've heard differences between SET tube amps and solid state amps, but sometimes in audio you cant trust your ears. While I'm a fan of DBTs, I'm not sure I trust the one in the original post. I'd at least need to see it repeated by a few different people. Plus i dont know what gear they compared and in what setting.
Seems that they took a lot of effort to make sure the amps didn't distort at all, but maybe it's the distortion characteristics of amplifiers that make them sound different. In fact, distortion is simply deviation from perfect flat sound, so if the amps aren't allowed to distort at all then they will all sound exactly the same........ but that's not a real world setting. In the real world amps distort, and it gives them a certain sound
elrod-tom
Moderator - Prefers "stereo weirdo" to "audiophile"
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If I read that correctly, mbriant knows Alan Loft personally, and fairly well at that. I think that, agendas notwithstanding, mbriant is MUCH better positioned to interpret what Alan did or did not intend to say. Wouldn't you agree?
I believe that mbriant posted this because, based on what he had read, he believed that there was at least some misinterpretation of what the article did or did not say. At some point, you might want to admit that it's at least possible - perhaps even (gasp!!) likely - that he might be speaking with greater authority on what the article did or did not say than you. Would it hurt to at least cede THAT much??
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Believe what you like...but you have no "proof" that this is or is not the case. You do have your opinion, which is that if only we all listened the right way - the scientific way - all these differences between amped and unamped would simply vanish. I've done some of that very thing, and it's my opinion that you are wrong.
But let's just assume for a moment that you are right. Who cares? What you seem intent on doing is impressing everyone with how smart you are, and what fools the rest of us are for believing as we do. You even question mbriant about his understanding of the article you cite, when it ought to be clear even to you that he can speak with much greater authority on the subject. It's tiresome...
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You are being paranoid.
However, I do not in fact agree that you have stayed "polite and reasonable" with regard to this subject. Your first post in another thread (entitled "Best amp for the AKG701") is IMHO not particularly polite, respectful of the OP's point of discussion, and what not.
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Oh, and as an aside, you even back-peddled from this position when challenged:
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http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showth...=214442&page=4
This is not, of course, what you started out saying. You entered a thread about what amp the OP ought to get that sounds best with his headphone of choice proclaiming that the notion that "amp make a difference to sound quality" was "highly contentious". That's thread crapping, and does not respect the OP's wish for the direction that the thread ought go.
As I had stated in the other thread, we don't much care for DBT discussions around here. Not because anyone is "afraid" of such discussion, but because it invariably ends up turning into a flame war. This is exactly the effect that your posts in the other thread in fact had on the direction and value of the thread. It turned a thread that would otherwise be a useful and important source of information for those people who seek out such information into a waste of time.
So, this thread notwithstanding, I think I can safely speak for many folks here when I say that crashing a thread about matching an amp with the OP's headphones to spout off about DBT and how amps make no difference in sound quality is NOT appreciated. If you want to discuss your opinion on this matter (and by the way, that's what it is), there are surely other sites where you can do that. If you wish to post here, however, I'd expect that you'd have a little more respect for the wishes of the membership not to have otherwise valued threads derailed...to say nothing of being respectful of the investment in money AND TIME said membership has made coming to their own opinions.
| Originally Posted by John_M /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think you're stretching Alan's comments too far when you say "Alan is effectively saying that with headphone amplifiers at least, there WILL be noticable, audible differences." I'd read Alan as saying that there is a good case for saying there will be differences, not as saying that there undoubtedly will be differences. |
If I read that correctly, mbriant knows Alan Loft personally, and fairly well at that. I think that, agendas notwithstanding, mbriant is MUCH better positioned to interpret what Alan did or did not intend to say. Wouldn't you agree?
I believe that mbriant posted this because, based on what he had read, he believed that there was at least some misinterpretation of what the article did or did not say. At some point, you might want to admit that it's at least possible - perhaps even (gasp!!) likely - that he might be speaking with greater authority on what the article did or did not say than you. Would it hurt to at least cede THAT much??
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| Originally Posted by John_M /img/forum/go_quote.gif Proof is the key point. I've heard a lot of people insisting earnestly that differences do exist, but I don't believe these people have been particularly methodical in their approach. |
Believe what you like...but you have no "proof" that this is or is not the case. You do have your opinion, which is that if only we all listened the right way - the scientific way - all these differences between amped and unamped would simply vanish. I've done some of that very thing, and it's my opinion that you are wrong.
But let's just assume for a moment that you are right. Who cares? What you seem intent on doing is impressing everyone with how smart you are, and what fools the rest of us are for believing as we do. You even question mbriant about his understanding of the article you cite, when it ought to be clear even to you that he can speak with much greater authority on the subject. It's tiresome...
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| Originally Posted by John_M /img/forum/go_quote.gif One more point. I can now only connect to this site via a proxy - if I connect direct, my browser says "access forbidden." I hope nobody's tried to ban me - I've tried to stay polite and reasonable (unlike several of the posters with more "acceptable" views!) My username at least is still alive, although I can't help but wonder how long this will continue. Maybe I'm just being paranoid.
|
You are being paranoid.
However, I do not in fact agree that you have stayed "polite and reasonable" with regard to this subject. Your first post in another thread (entitled "Best amp for the AKG701") is IMHO not particularly polite, respectful of the OP's point of discussion, and what not.
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| Originally Posted by John_M Ugh. Why are people still uncritically accepting that amps make a difference to sound quality? This is a highly contentious claim but you'd never realise it to read some of these threads... |
Oh, and as an aside, you even back-peddled from this position when challenged:
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| Originally Posted by John_M I think you're missing the point a bit. The issue isn't whether there's a difference between amped and unamped. The issue is whether different amps of reasonable quality sound the same. |
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showth...=214442&page=4
This is not, of course, what you started out saying. You entered a thread about what amp the OP ought to get that sounds best with his headphone of choice proclaiming that the notion that "amp make a difference to sound quality" was "highly contentious". That's thread crapping, and does not respect the OP's wish for the direction that the thread ought go.
As I had stated in the other thread, we don't much care for DBT discussions around here. Not because anyone is "afraid" of such discussion, but because it invariably ends up turning into a flame war. This is exactly the effect that your posts in the other thread in fact had on the direction and value of the thread. It turned a thread that would otherwise be a useful and important source of information for those people who seek out such information into a waste of time.
So, this thread notwithstanding, I think I can safely speak for many folks here when I say that crashing a thread about matching an amp with the OP's headphones to spout off about DBT and how amps make no difference in sound quality is NOT appreciated. If you want to discuss your opinion on this matter (and by the way, that's what it is), there are surely other sites where you can do that. If you wish to post here, however, I'd expect that you'd have a little more respect for the wishes of the membership not to have otherwise valued threads derailed...to say nothing of being respectful of the investment in money AND TIME said membership has made coming to their own opinions.
sacd lover
Headphoneus Supremus
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Good post Tom .... I could not agree with you more.
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