[tangent]

Quote:

So, I could take all the posts/discussion so far, design and manufacture an amp/kit/PCB from that information, and sell it at a profit right?

Yes, except for the PCB layout, as aos said. The PCB layout, like any creative work, is copyrighted automatically, and we'd have to choose to release that explicitly from copyright, or put it under some kind of free use license.

 

[CaptBubba]

Exactly. The discussions are not commecial, but if you post a proposed PCB design that you do not intend to allow other people to produce I would argue that it becomes commecial.

On the other hand I feel that the head-fi DIY forum has pretty much transformed into a META42 troubleshooting forum. The amount of questions dealing with the building of a commercial amplifier I think warrents the setting up of a dedicated troubleshooting forum by the manufacturer, much like Bottlehead has.

 

[tangent]

Quote:

you do not intend to allow other people to produce [copies of the PCB]

It's not a question of allowing people to make one-offs or not. There's no economical way to make just a few boards from an ExpressPCB file, so no one will do it. The only person that benefits if we release the PCB layout for any use is the guy who wants to go and make 1000 of them.

Quote:

I feel that the head-fi DIY forum has pretty much transformed into a META42 troubleshooting forum.

That's a huge exaggeration.

But let's talk about the minority of threads here that do have to do with the META42. I don't see that it's any different from people asking for troubleshooting info about any amp, whether based on a commercial circuit board or not. Those that want to spend time answering the questions can, those who want to skip the threads can, and those who just want to read the threads to learn more about building amps can do that, too. The bandwidth is covered by the ads I've kept current since the Mall-Fi forum was started. If Jude thinks I'm not paying my share of the bandwidth, then that's between me and him.



So let's sum up here. You're asking me to:

- Give away my chance at recovering my prototyping costs

- Pay big recurring hosting fees to set up a bulletin board site, splitting the community in the process

- Spend a bunch of time maintaining that site, and still have time left over to answer questions there and here.


You know what comes next? I quit my day job, set up a real company, hire the PPA team members so I can keep the design to myself, set up a private forum that only customers can access, and raise my prices dramatically to cover all of those costs.

Such an improvement....

 

[Possum]

Quote:

Originally posted by CaptBubba On the other hand I feel that the head-fi DIY forum has pretty much transformed into a META42 troubleshooting forum. The amount of questions dealing with the building of a commercial amplifier I think warrents the setting up of a dedicated troubleshooting forum by the manufacturer, much like Bottlehead has.

There is a point here. Unfortunately, most of the threads about the META42 are not started by people in the META42 team, so they can't be blamed.

 

[Tomo]

Hey,

DIYaudio has its own forum for GainClones.

I think META deserves its own forum. That way, the forum is less stuffed and people will feel less peer pressure and post about other amplifiers. And the questions aren't going to down-listed to the next page so quickly.

On the personal notes, (it is really obvious to you all, but) I am getting real bored of META stuffs. It's way too simplistic. We are getting all stuffy and groomy over it. I think rather ... un-professional of us. (As in Expert DIYers)

Tomo

P.S. Perhaps what we need is something outrageously unique. Heeheeheehee. ....

 

[CaptBubba]

Quote:

Originally posted by tangent That's a huge exaggeration.

Of course it is. Everything I ever say is an exaggeration (minor paradox there...). But, like most exaggeration, there is a grain of truth under it all.

Quote:

The only person that benefits if we release the PCB layout for any use is the guy who wants to go and make 1000 of them.

EXACTLY my point. My argument was that if you post a PCB design the thread crosses a certain "comercial" boundry and ceases to be in the spirit of the DIY forums. (never mind that I am currently messing aroun d with a way for anyone with access to a laser printer or toner-based photocopier and an iron to be able to create professional-quality PCBs (albiet without vias), with very promising results)

Quote:

Originally posted by Tomo On the personal notes, (it is really obvious to you all, but) I am getting real bored of META stuffs. It's way too simplistic. We are getting all stuffy and groomy over it. I think rather ... un-professional of us. (As in Expert DIYers)

Agreed. I'm currently trying to figure out how to best modify a class AB 12AX7/6BQ5 (same tubes used in the ASL MG Head) amplifier kit to both give optimal sound and to include a good headphone out. Unfortunatly I'm quite flummoxed as to the best route to go. The kit is from the 1940s, so there isn't much in the way of documentation unfortunatly.

 

[eric343]

Yeah, a 'Troubleshooting' forum would be a Good Thing, I think.

(or maybe, given the post volume, make the main forum the troubleshooting one and have the offsplit forum be for design/discussion!

)

CaptBubba: I believe Tangent will be posting the Gerber files (and maybe the Eagle ones?) so that we can make our own... I'm not sure though.

 

[earthling]

Quote:

Originally posted by CaptBubba Exactly. The discussions are not commecial, but if you post a proposed PCB design that you do not intend to allow other people to produce I would argue that it becomes commecial.

There is a big difference between 'copyright' and 'commercial', one does not imply the other. Tangent said it was 'copyright' and 'commercially unfeasible' (my words but Tangents sentiment) for anyone else to build in small quantities. The real information someone needs is right on Morsels site. Isn't that what fundamental DIY is all about...


Quote:

On the other hand I feel that the head-fi DIY forum has pretty much transformed into a META42 troubleshooting forum. The amount of questions dealing with the building of a commercial amplifier

It blows me away to hear people talk about the meta, and the PPA in commercial terms. If you think that either of these is a commercial project .. well.. lets just say it takes a bit more to qualify this as a bonified commercial effort. I am not picking on you or anyone else, simply quoting a sentiment and expressing my own opinion.

This thread states my own experience in electronics.

http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showt...threadid=23752

Quote:

I think warrents the setting up of a dedicated troubleshooting forum by the manufacturer, much like Bottlehead has.

Without projects like the Meta, how quiet would these forums be? Its the popularity of the project (to the credit of the team) that continues to fuel the the community. Without projects like this (and the PPA) then the smaller business's which sell you (meaning us) our esoteric parts would not exist and even the most basic facets of the hobby would be beyond mortal reach. Be careful what you ask for..

Maybe what is needed is a forum for hardcore DIY'ers but I think moving the Meta discussion to its own forum would be a disservice to the community and the popularity of these forums. With the current structure of the forums anyone can jump into the current forum, read a bit, start to catch on a little bit, find out about the meta/cmoy/whatever, see the support projects are getting, feel confident, get excited and get involved. For most people this is enough, for those that catch the bug its just the beginning. Orienting the main DIY discussion away from projects like the Meta42 would in my opinion be a huge mistake but maybe thats just the marketing part of me talking...

 

[CaptBubba]

Quote:

It blows me away to hear people talk about the meta, and the PPA in commercial terms. If you think that either of these is a commercial project .. well.. lets just say it takes a bit more to qualify this as a bonified commercial effort.

Commercial
Function: adjective
Date 1598

2 a : viewed with regard to profit b : designed for a large market

IMO, it fits the bill. As long as these boards are being designed for sale at a profit, they are commercial ventures. Take the mini-gilmore boards for example, talk of the layout was allowed, until the mention of somebody buying them en masse from express PCB and selling them at a very small profit to cover his trouble. Alarm sirens went off, threads were deleted. After that we moved all discussion of the board, amplifiers built on the board, and parts associated with the board to a separate forum because it had ceased to be a purely recreational venture. I don't see why the current situation with the PPA, which was intended from the begining to be sold is any different and should not be handled in a similar manner.

Quote:

Without projects like the Meta, how quiet would these forums be? Its the popularity of the project (to the credit of the team) that continues to fuel the the community. Without projects like this (and the PPA) then the smaller business's which sell you (meaning us) our esoteric parts would not exist and even the most basic facets of the hobby would be beyond mortal reach. Be careful what you ask for..

We'd be talking about developments such as seoje's (sp) inventive layouts; finding out why the Earmax Pro can deliver more power with the same tube compliment and design as the Earmax and how it may be possible to modify an Earmax into a Pro; how to best null out offsets on current feedback operational amplifiers; what the hell SPice models really show of a cicuit's potential; or why the magic smoke is so critical to electronic devices. Simply put, we wouldn't run out of things to talk about, and DIY headphone stuff makes such a small part of any market that the suppliers that we get our small-value orders from wouldn't dissapear.

Quote:

Maybe what is needed is a forum for hardcore DIY'ers but I think moving the Meta discussion to its own forum would be a disservice to the community and the popularity of these forums. With the current structure of the forums anyone can jump into the current forum, read a bit, start to catch on a little bit, find out about the meta/cmoy/whatever, see the support projects are getting, feel confident, get excited and get involved. For most people this is enough, for those that catch the bug its just the beginning. Orienting the main DIY discussion away from projects like the Meta42 would in my opinion be a huge mistake but maybe thats just the marketing part of me talking...

Perhaps part of my gripe is that these amplifiers are being recomended to people with no DIY expeirence or intrest. I'm sure you agree that even if you enjoy electronics work it can be frustrating when things go wrong, but if you are just trying to get a workable amp any problem which a seasoned DIYer may consider to be just a routine setback could be infuriating. Many of the people building these amplifiers are not interested in the DIY side of this hobby, they just want a cheap amp. To use a crude analogy, they are using the paint-by-numbers aproach to amp building. The results can be damn good at times, but without knowledge of the theorys and such behind the product, if you mess up or encounter trouble along the way, you are stuck.

 

[aos]

Er, no, we aren't talking about optimal layouts, modifying commercial equipment or Spice model parameters. Look around you! It's all but gone, both here and on Headwize. A few posts in a blue moon don't make it a moon river. Why is this, I don't know, but the forums are not what they used to be.

 

[tangent]

Quote:

I believe Tangent will be posting the Gerber files (and maybe the Eagle ones?) so that we can make our own...

There are no Gerbers, and no Eagle files -- that's precisely my point. Without these, you have to order boards from ExpressPCB, and that's seriously expensive if you just want one or two. Therefore, it makes no sense for the CAD files to be given away.

If you really want to etch your own boards, you can take the schematic and make your own layout. And those that do that will almost certainly want to change something here and there, so they're going to end up with a new layout anyway. For all practical purposes, this design is free enough. Anything beyond that would be purely symbolic.

Quote:

It blows me away to hear people talk about [these amps] in commercial terms

It would do all you naysayers a load of good to read through the thread Earthling pointed to. 5x profit margins over cost, dealer networks....this would be an improvement? This would solve something? You people are so worried that I might make a dollar, but the solution you're proposing is basically that I go and try to become the Headroom Killer. That doesn't interest me in the slightest. I'm a DIYer. The amp boards I sell come from the DIY community, and they are for the DIY community. Their purpose is to make it easier to build a DIY'd amp. That's it. That's why I'm here. I want to make more DIYers.

Quote:

Take the mini-gilmore boards for example, talk of the layout was allowed, until the mention of somebody buying them en masse from express PCB and selling them at a very small profit to cover his trouble. Alarm sirens went off, threads were deleted.

...and no Mall-Fi ad was placed. He basically made the DIY forum his advertisement. That crosses the line.

People, I've talked with Jude, and he's happy with my presence here, as long as I keep the commercial bits in Mall-Fi. That's his interpretation of his rules. He just wants to see that those with a commercial intent don't use Head-Fi as a source of free advertising. Sure, I don't contribute as much as Headroom and Meier Audio do, but then, I don't make as much money as they do, either. I contribute what I can, and that's what matters to Jude.

Quote:

viewed with regard to profit

Oh goodie, dictionary arguments. You know a debate is going downhill when....

Right now, the PPA boards are as good as vaporware. There is no product. You can't buy it. You can't preorder it. We can't even tell you if we'll ever order boards or not, because we can't honestly guarantee that we will. So for now, this is just talk about designs. The designs are not profitable; they will make me precisely $0. It's true that if the boards are ever made, they will not be sold at cost, but you won't hear about their existence first here on the DIY forum.

Quote:

We'd be talking about developments such as seoje's (sp) inventive layouts; finding out why the Earmax Pro can deliver more power with the same tube compliment and design as the Earmax and how it may be possible to modify an Earmax into a Pro; how to best null out offsets on current feedback operational amplifiers; what the hell SPice models really show of a cicuit's potential; or why the magic smoke is so critical to electronic devices.

So......[struggling to grasp the concept].....the META42 is responsible for all of these things not being talked about?? I suppose I am somehow stopping you from posting a thread about these topics, and also blocking those who would respond to your thread.

Wow. I'm apparently quite a powerful guy; impressive, really. Must be the Grape Nuts.

And here's the real kicker: if I start my own forum, somehow I can't do this evil hoodoo from over there. Everything will change for the better if the META42 just goes away. Riiiighht.

Quote:

DIY headphone stuff makes such a small part of any market that the suppliers that we get our small-value orders from wouldn't dissapear.

Mmmhm. So in the absence of the META42, these other DIY suppliers would still have EL2001s, you'd happily be paying $29 for an ALPS RK27112 at Angela, and if the TLE2426CLP was truly obsoleted, you'd somehow manage to smelt enough beach sand to make your own from scratch. Yes, I'm quite unnecessary here. No contribution whatsoever. Might as well pack up and go away. Yep.

Quote:

Many of the people building these amplifiers are not interested in the DIY side of this hobby, they just want a cheap amp. To use a crude analogy, they are using the paint-by-numbers aproach to amp building. The results can be damn good at times, but without knowledge of the theorys and such behind the product, if you mess up or encounter trouble along the way, you are stuck.

So not every person who buys a META42 board will become a hard-core DIYer. Some of them have. So what either way? Is this really an argument that DIY should be more difficult, to keep out the poor idiots who don't have what it takes to do complex DIY from day one?

I've seen that argument many times over the years, in many forums, and it's complete hogwash. "Yes, sonny, it was so much better back in ought-one...why, we didn't have these fancy pee-cee-bees back in them days! We had ta airwire it all like a bleedin' magpie's nest AND WE LIKED IT! Life was so much better then, m'boy..."

 

[earthling]

Quote:

Originally posted by CaptBubba Commercial Function: adjective Date 1598 2 a : viewed with regard to profit b : designed for a large market

Please.. selectively quoting dictionary entries.. ?!?

How about the ones you left out..

"Involved in work that is intended for the mass market: a commercial artist. "

"Of, relating to, or being goods, often unrefined, produced and distributed in large quantities for use by industry. "

"Having profit as a chief aim: a commercial book, not a scholarly tome. "

Commercial in this sense lies in the intent of the project which believe me are not 'mass market', ' large quantities', or 'profit as the chief aim'.

Quote:

IMO, it fits the bill. As long as these boards are being designed for sale at a profit, they are commercial ventures.

If you were to put this black and white of a definition on the commercial aspect of this hobby you might as well get out your glass blowing kit and start making your own tubes because guess what.. they are a commercial item that could be recreated by hand. (an extreme example). You predjudice two groups because the first is creating a project accessible by a second group of people who (currently) lack the background, knowledge, time or skills to interact with the hobby at a lower level.

Is that really fair. Where is the line drawn. When was the last time you hand wound an inductor? Almost everyone has a line which they will not cross when it comes to DIY because of many, many varying factors. This sounds very much like the discussions in woodworking circles where some 'purists' disparage others for using power tools.

I don't want to read between your lines (which I didn't bother quoting) but you must realize how elitist your arguements sound. Just because someone is not as dedicated as you to the hows and whys does not make them any less important than you are to their contributions to this board (head-fi). I see far more 'another meta42 posts' from people who don't ask questions on the forums than those occasional posts by people who don't want to put any effort into the problems they encounter.

Maybe I will quote a bit more..

Quote:

We'd be talking about developments such as seoje's (sp) inventive layouts; finding out why the Earmax Pro can deliver more power with the same tube compliment and design as the Earmax and how it may be possible to modify an Earmax into a Pro; how to best null out offsets on current feedback operational amplifiers; what the hell SPice models really show of a cicuit's potential; or why the magic smoke is so critical to electronic devices. Simply put, we wouldn't run out of things to talk about, and DIY headphone stuff makes such a small part of any market that the suppliers that we get our small-value orders from wouldn't dissapear.

I would qualify most of what you just said as a discussion about tweaking, not purely DIY (DIY is NOT modifying commercial products) and hardly relevant to this discussion. Its the original projects which fuel these tweaks, original projects without which you wouldn't have the discussion to begin with. You cannot compare a layout project to a design project. To do so is an insult to the design engineers. We (my company) does very complex circuit design. Our current project has more than 14 layers, surface mount on both sides, and has literally more than a million programmed logic cells. Do I think for a second that the layout guy (actually gal) who worked on this project even begins to understand the circuit (the answer is no).

You cannot compare the scope of a project like the PPA or meta for that matter to 80% of the other talk on these forums (no offense intended). It is a difficult thing to manage a project like this even when everyone works for one person who ultimately makes decisions but for a project to come together with such obviously diverse personalities and for it to actually FINISH (at some point) is a freakin miracle and you should be excited that it is happening at all.

I could write a book about why the PPA and Meta do not qualify in any fashion as commercial projects (as opposed to the mini-gilmore of which I own 4 boards) but instead I will point out that I think it shows a profound lack of disrespect to the forum moderators to continuously label the project as commercial when they have obviously decided that it is not. Unless of course the people (not picking on you bubba) involved have a goal of running the PPA team off of the forums, and the only thing that makes sense there is some sort of commercial motivation.

For now we should just leave it up to the moderators to know whats right and wrong, it is after all, their call.

 

[erix]

Hey folks, just got back from NYC last night and haven't been near a keyboard in 4 days.

Carlo: Thanx for moving this and for setting up the ground rule which is Quote:

This thread is not about any specific project but rather what should and shouldn't be allowed in the DIY forum.

Kudos to those that have managed to stay on topic. I think it is hard to stay on topic because there is only one person/group/entity that seems to be able to do it. Not that others haven't tried as were the two I spoke about in my second post. Hell, I've sold stuff here.

"What??!! erix??!! You hypocritical person!!"

Yup, I sold Cerafine caps. I bought a lot, used a lot, and sold the rest. I did it in the DIY forums, that was 18 months ago, or so.

You might say I inhaled....

I liked meeting all the builders and offering them something they couldn't get elsewhere. I think tangent gets the same feeling as well. It's fun helping other builders out.

Then it occurred to me that perhaps it was best not to post ads in DIY and I didn't do it again. I just felt like I was taking advantage of Jude's hospitality and that my actions might not be universally accepted by people that I admired. So I stopped.


later....





Damn.





I just went and pulled up those ads. I am a hypocrite. Blatant commercial posting..., I asked for suggestions as to which values to order, gave shipping prices, etc.., it's a wonder Jude didn't kick me out.

All the things I've been ranting about for a week, and I was the prototype.

It seems the ads pre-date the META42 topic, even. Perhaps tangent got the impression it was ok from seeing my experience?

Come to think of it, when Apheared and I used to e-mail alot, and I told him I posted those ads, he said, "Hoo boy! Now I'll sit back to watch the fireworks begin!" I guess he saw this discussion coming, eh? He always was an insightful person.

Anyway.. even though I'm strongly against commercial postings in DIY now, I have no right continuing to be a part of this discusion.

Dammit Tomo-san! You were right!!

packwood,
erix

 

[Tomo]

Hey,

I just came here to do DIYer must do.

How about Outrageously Easy, Outrageously Strange, Low voltage, Class-A, 6-parallel complementary mosfet amplifier?

(The second one uses 74LVU04FP)

Can you believe you can build an amp with 74HCU04?? Apparently, it sounds good ... very surprising.

T

 

[Jupiter]

Quote:

Originally posted by aos Er, no, we aren't talking about optimal layouts, modifying commercial equipment or Spice model parameters. Look around you! It's all but gone, both here and on Headwize. A few posts in a blue moon don't make it a moon river. Why is this, I don't know, but the forums are not what they used to be.

There are many newbie/beginner DIYers (like me) in this forum, so advanced DIYers might not get much advice or help here anymore. What about splitting the DIY forum into several forums? Maybe one forum for newbie/beginners and another for experienced DIYers.