[erix]

The Ballad of PPA

I gots a fly-ass amp,
With the name of PPA,
Went to college for engineerin',
But got a silly MBA.

I don't need to know nuthin',
'Bout open loop gain,
Gots an amp with big BASS,
And it rattles my brain.

Created by the Team,
With lotsa help from a few,
To get to the cream,
You gotta wade through Doo Doo.

This used to be a board,
About sharin' ideas,
Not market research,
And thinly-veiled ads.

Now

We

Be

Tryin to make an amp,
To compete with antness,
Whose side you're on now,
That is the test.

Better be careful,
Of what you propose,
It'll wind up in the project,
And it won't smell like a rose.

My fly-ass amp
I built it from a kit
Smart ppl created it
And he wasn't paid ****.

You'll get the oppurtunity,
To listen to product,
Just cough-up $400,
And until then shut up.

Word,
erix

 

[morsel]

Erix has not posted anything constructive for the last 6 months. He baits and insults people, incites unrest, conflict, and bad feelings. He contributes nothing to this community.

Moderators, can he be banned or suspended?

 

[AIM9x]

naah, just suspend him until the PPA is completed,

 

[Tomo]

Hey,

I wouldn't worry about Erix. I thought he was entertaining. He is probably having one of those days. Sometimes, life is real bitter or so I hear according to TVs.

For better or worse, he is losing credibility by doing so. Kinda punishing himself. So I think you don't need to go out of ways just to punish him.

Besides, trying to make people conform isn't fun especially when it is temporary stuff. It will blow over and you will feel extra stupid when he/she is a good friend.

Don't get worked up about it because "no mere human can stand in the fire and not be consumed by it."**

Tomo

** Possession by A.S. Byatt. Different context but then ... Ok ok. The book make me cry. So sweet so sad.

 

[erix]

Quote:

Erix has not posted anything constructive for the last 6 months. He baits and insults people, incites unrest, conflict, and bad feelings. He contributes nothing to this community. Moderators, can he be banned or suspended?

Golly, strong words Miss Christine, but I think you meant to say:

Quote:

Erix has not posted anything constructive about My Project for the last 6 months.

and

Quote:

He contributes nothing to My Project.

Have you read each of my posts from the last 6 months? How many are there? If we looked back 6 months into the history of morsel, how many "contributions" would we find? How many of those would not be about your 'Project'?

Quote:

He baits and insults people, incites unrest, conflict, and bad feelings.

Ya know, I get e-mails and PMs every time I post in one of the 'Team' threads and not one of them has been negative. I've never set out to insult anyone. But insults happen, whether intentional or not.

I think the presence of your commercial 'Project' in this DIY forum is more of an insult than anything I've read since Head-Fi began. The fact that it continues to thrive, and even reproduce, is possibly the biggest insult of all.

Incites unrest, conflict, and bad feelings??!! Give me a break..

Your 'Project' is the most devisive topic to ever hit these boards.

Let's get a few things straight before we launch this missle:

1. I don't care if you are selling commercially made boards. More power to you, in fact.
I started with commercially made boards and it's a great way to get up to speed on building. A beginner is almost certain to succeed using a PCB and if they succeed once they'll stay interested and build more.

2. I don't care if you and others make amps with your boards to sell to other people.
I can't do it - I've got a wife, a kid, another kid on the way, 2 dogs, 2 cats, a 40 year old house and a real job. In fact, I think you should spend more time building.

My beef with you and your 'Team' is the obvious commercial intent of the 'Team' posts in this non-commercial forum.

Let us use some examples:

Let's say Tyll wanted to manufacture a new amp for Headroom. Let's say he posted market research questions and advertisements in the DIY forum.
Do you think that would fly? My guess is no.

Let's say Joe Lau wanted to manufacture a new amp for ASL. Let's say he posted market research questions and advertisements in the DIY forum.
Do you think that would fly? My guess is no.

Let's say a member of this forum spent some time designing a circuit board for a certain Dynamic amplifier based on a schematic in the public domain. Let's say he posted his intent to offer said circuit boards in the DIY forum. Do you think that would fly? We know the answer to that one and it was 'No'.

Let's say another member of this forum posted his intent to build amplifiers based on a certain Dynamic amplifier based on a schematic in the public domain and sell kits and completed amps. Let's say he posted his intentions in both the DIY forum and the Amplifiers forum. Do you think that would fly? We know the answer to that one as well and it too was 'No'.

Now, the 'Team' is pretty smart. In the very first post on the subject we were all given a link to the 'Team' website where we could view the schem of the amplifier as well as several links to actual information. Smart move - now the schem is "public domain". Now the 'Team' is free to discuss how to build their version of said amplifier. If you want to build your own version of it, fine, go ahead.

It's when you read through the first thread you realize that it is all about marketing. "Which pot do you want?", "Which jack do you want?", "LED on the left or the middle?" - these are all production-related questions. They have nothing to do with the circuit, the theory of operation, no meat and potatos, it's all filler. Every response to questions like "Why are you doing this?" were answered with production-related responses. "There isn't room", "I'll supply that part", etc..

There was a GOLDEN oppurtunity for the 'Team' to step up and explain the why's and how's of this 'Project', either on this board or the 'Team' website. Instead, the 'Team' presented first-year filter design, links to websites written by folks smarter than themselves, and links to manufacturer's data sheets.

And a lot of marketing.

It's all ******** - it's whetting the public's appetite and getting consumer feedback - the two primary responsibilities of any marketing campaign.

Hell, several times in that first thread they mention how much better their amp will be than the Gilmore. Tell me that ain't marketing!

This irked me, this double standard. So I posted the Head-Fi rules regarding manufacturers on that thread. They started new threads about pertinent topics like cascodes, power supplies, etc.. Or at least they would be pertinent if they didn't mention PPA throughout all of them. Those threads are now just more marketing.

Probably the most interesting item I've read was claim that the 'Team' is doing the DIY'ers a service by creating this amp board.

Well, when I think of anyone offering the DIY'ers a service I think of the Projects on Chu Moy's Headwize site. Chu has done more for this hobby than anyone on the 'Team'. Headwize's project library is chocked full of GOOD designs, WELL documented with theory of operation and practical building advice. And it's all free. Even though the authors of all those projects (including a certain Dynamic amplifier) spent many hours building and tinkering with the design, even though Chu spent hours and hours getting the articles polished and presentable with clear, easy-to-read and understand drawings, they are still free.

That, my friends, is a true service to the DIY community.

Other people who do DIY'ers a great service include ppl, Tomo, aos, Kevin Gilmore, rickcr42, and anyone else who offers their advice, based on their years of experience and training, free for the asking. These guys were heros of mine when I started and I'm eternally grateful.

That's a service.

What the 'Team' offers is a product (or more accurately, the promise of a product) - and so far as I've seen, little else.

If the 'Team' wishes to do the DIY'ers a service, then they should make their PCB files available for the DIY public so that they might have their own boards made.

Let's change gears here... let's talk about public domain.

Has anybody noticed that in the past year or so no real new designs have come through the boards? I have a theory about this and it has to do with the rampant commercialization of the DIY boards. If I was a ****-hot designer and I had a kick-ass amplifier design that is easy to build, cheap, small, runs on batteries, etc... would I want to come here and show people?

Hell No!! Once I do that, the design is public domain and somebody with deeper pockets than me will make a PCB of it and a pile 'o cash. Can you say META42?

I think this mercenary profit-making attitude that prevails around here is primarily responsible for the lack of stimulating design discussion on this board.

But we have some stimulating discussion here, don't we?

I also believe that's why we don't see so many old names anymore. In fact I know that's why two noted smart-folks don't talk much around here anymore and the list of the silent grows longer each day.

Back to the previous topic...

Why did antness start his own board? Simple - so he could talk about his product. Good for him! Captive audience! No one can tell him what he can and can't post and if he doesn't like what somebody says, he can lock them out. Mind you, I've never posted there, nor do I intend to, but I've seen it and it is an excellent solution - one the the 'Team' should look into

Quote:

He contributes nothing to this community.

Now, that hurt my feelings, Miss Christine. No Fair.

I may be a buffoon, but at least I know how to build things from schematics. I've built a lot of things. I've taken pictures of them all and shared them on this board. I build them, I listen to them, I tell people of my experience with the build. A lot of times my posts are related to HOW to build things as opposed to WHY to build things a certain way. I've created PDF's of my builds so that others may build something like it.

Take it or leave it, but that's the extent of my contribution. I also post on other Head-Fi boards.
Perhaps you've noticed there are other boards on Head-Fi?

Now, I can't recall ever seeing or hearing of something you've built. Neither here or on DIYAudio.com. Do correct me if I'm wrong.

So, besides being 'Team Leader', what is your contribution?

This is how I feel.
This may not be the way the owner and operator of this board feels.
This may not be the way the moderators of this board feel.

But I can promise you, I am not the only one who feels this way....

pariah,
erix

 

[yejun]

The board is at a very low price, much affordable than making board ourself.
We probably can borrow some concept of open source software in our projects. Personally I do not object using community design in commercial product as long as it follows some protocols.
Hope we can keep discussion here more professional.
I'd like to see more useful information such as Tomo provided.

 

[puppyslugg]

Whatever the motivation of Team PPA is, IMO, it's not profit driven. When I look at what tangent is charging for boards and parts, he can't possibly be making much of a profit, if at all. When it is all said and done, they are probably 'losing' money, if you factor in the time and effort that was invested. I don't understand how people can say they are profit motivated.

Not everybody here at headfi is a designer. I for one, am grateful people like ppl, tangent and morsel are willing to devote their time and expertise in providing me with a alternative to commercially available products. The 'products' they provide are great values!

Thanks guys!

 

[morsel]

Erix, the depths of your spite and ignorance are simultaneously baffling and appalling. I am on permanent disability. I am not allowed to earn money, even if I wanted to. I participate here for the fun of it, not for profit. The PPA project is for the benefit of the DIY community. We don't have to do this. We could just walk away and the only repercussions would be that the community would not get PPA boards and Tangent would be out the cash it took to make the existing prototypes. As Puppyslugg pointed out, Tangent is not getting rich on META42 boards. They are sold for a pittance, barely covering his expenses, time, and effort involved in sending them out to people.

You are so cynical you can't imagine the possibility that someone would actually be doing this out of the goodness of their own heart. You compare Tangent to Antness, who sells his Gilmore boards for a handsome profit and is in fact a real business. Tangent distributes boards as a service to the DIY community. I know exactly how much of an unpleasant drag it is for him to do this, but if he didn't do it, no one would. He also maintains his extensive website full of useful information for the DIY community.

Your entire premise is based upon the false assumption that we are in it for the money.

Regarding the pcb designs: When I approached Tangent about the META42 and we designed it, I wanted the pcb files to be public domain, but Tangent argued against it on the grounds that he had to put up a large amount of his own money to be able to have the boards made. He didn't want to risk having someone else make a huge batch of boards overseas and sticking him with inventory he could not sell. Things have changed since that time and it probably makes sense to publish the pcb files. I think most of the reason it hasn't happened yet is because we are busy with other things and it sort of fell by the wayside.

As far as the PPA goes, there is not much point in publishing pcb files atm because it is not done yet. I don't see a problem with making them public domain. In any case, gifs of the current schematic and layout are up for all to see and copy if they are determined to clone our unfinished project.

Perhaps you don't understand that not everyone wants to build projects from scratch. Some people want a pcb made for them, and some people want the value of a DIY community project .vs. the expense of commercial products. We are giving people that alternative.

Perhaps you are financially vested in commercial concerns yourself, and can't stand the thought that we are doing this as a community service.
Quote:

Now, I can't recall ever seeing or hearing of something you've built. Neither here or on DIYAudio.com. Do correct me if I'm wrong.

Now this actually made me smile.

I approached Eric343 over a year ago to see if he wanted to design a board with me. When he declined, I contacted Tangent, and together we created the META42.

When the AD8610 opamp came out, I created what is now known as the BrownDog opamp adapter and gave the design to BrownDog for nothing.

Now I am working on the PPA, and I have better things to do than itemize exactly what I or any other team member does, just to satisfy your curiosity. I quit reading DIYaudio because too many people like you post there. There is more to life than engaging in unpleasant conversations on this or any other board.

 

[tangent]

Quote:

pile 'o cash. Can you say META42?

There is no "pile of cash". The gross income last year for parts and completed amps is less than I could have made working a side job at McDonald's. Net -- after parts cost, shipping, taxes, prototyping costs, tools -- was a piddly sum. And that piddly sum is all I ask for my time in dealing with the orders. Time I could spend doing something else. Something where people don't yell at me and try to run me off.

Quote:

it is all about marketing. "Which pot do you want?", "Which jack do you want?", "LED on the left or the middle?" - these are all production-related questions.

You call it marketing, I call it getting input from those who will build amps based on these boards.

Quote:

Let's say another member of this forum posted his intent to build amplifiers based on a certain Dynamic amplifier based on a schematic in the public domain and sell kits and completed amps. Let's say he posted his intentions in both the DIY forum and the Amplifiers forum. Do you think that would fly? We know the answer to that one as well and it too was 'No'.

You're painting it black-and-white, but in truth I'm in a gray area here. The threads that got canned were purely commercial; nothing was being given back to the community. Maybe I flatter myself, but I think my presence here is a net positive.

Quote:

Hell, several times in that first thread they mention how much better their amp will be than the Gilmore. Tell me that ain't marketing!

It's speculation, is what it is. You'll notice that I didn't say anything of the kind, and I've publically tried to discourage that line of thought, repeatedly.

Quote:

If the 'Team' wishes to do the DIY'ers a service, then they should make their PCB files available for the DIY public so that they might have their own boards made.

First, the layouts are public. Second, if we took the next step and made the ExpressPCB files public, what benefit would that have? You can only buy two boards at minimum from them, and it costs about $115 for boards the size of the PPA. Why in the world would anyone do that when they can get better boards cheaper from me?

The only person that would benefit from having the ExpressPCB files is someone who wanted to go and make a few hundred of them and compete. Now you want to talk about "all taking and no giving", that's a much better example than the ones you're giving.

So where do we draw the line, given that there's problems going entirely one way or the other? If someone goes and takes our work and makes a buck off it, we can't stop them. Yet, I've put a lot of money into this prototyping effort and want to get that back out. I don't have easy answers here; before you go providing me with easy answers, step into my shoes first.

Quote:

in the past year or so no real new designs have come through the boards?

If you think the PPA isn't new, you don't understand the circuit.

Quote:

I also believe that's why we don't see so many old names anymore. In fact I know that's why two noted smart-folks don't talk much around here anymore and the list of the silent grows longer each day.

If someone makes a design public, they have no standing if someone goes and makes money with that design unless they've patented the circuit. The only possible middle ground is something like what Nelson Pass does, allowing people to make one-offs, but not allowing them to make many of them commercially. But, I don't see anyone asking for that for the designs you see on these forums; and you have to ask, it's not assumed. Indeed, if you want to get into the legal aspects of it, even Nelson Pass's non-compete request doesn't hold water. He'd have to release his designs with a license that people must agree to before they can see the design. So far, the honor system has been sufficient for him, I guess. But your complaint seems to be about people have taken circuit elements they saw somewhere in public and used them without permission. If that's a problem, every headphone amp design I've ever seen would be stopped cold, because they all take something from the public domain.

The key is, do these designs give anything back to the public domain?

Quote:

A lot of times my posts are related to HOW to build things as opposed to WHY to build things a certain way. I've created PDF's of my builds so that others may build something like it.

Me too, but you're trying to run me off the board. I know you think your beef is with Morsel, but it isn't: it's with me. Morsel doesn't make a dime from any of this, but the basis of your complaint seems to be the moneymaking aspect.

You also seem to be bothered by the fact that PPL isn't making money, either. They're both participating because it's interesting and the PPA gets their ideas out to a wider audience; they're getting what they want out of the deal. If they want to go and work with someone else, they can, I have no hold over them. If anything, it's the reverse: I will be making the PPA only at their sufferance. If they don't want me to make PPAs, I won't.

As I've explained above, I make money only to further my hobby, to cover the prototyping costs, and to make it worthwhile for me to spend as much time on the ordering aspect of this as I do. I do not make money on the design, or anything like that. I don't own the design. Someone wants to go and build their own boards with the same circuit, the schematic is available publically. Go to it.

 

[Vdubjunkie]

Wow, this is a dynamic thread. Why is it so hard for people to simply explain their position in an informative manner and avoid such conflict in the process.

This last bit about tangent making piles o cash is hilarious. this chump seems to not have a clue about any production or "behind the scenes" work on any level.
Man, if this dude was trying to get rich off this he would be going about it in an entirely different manner. Selling boards and parts.. not what I would expect from a moustache twisting marketing genius villan.

For those of us new to the scene of DIY amps, his services are invaluable. And, for those who can put it together but don't want to learn a darned thing about how they work.. again, invaluable.

Man.. take a valium and a nap.

 

[Voodoochile]

Quote:

this chump seems to not have a clue about any production or "behind the scenes" work on any level.

I know both Eric and Warren pretty well, and I can assure you Eric is not a clueless chump. Neither is Warren. Eric does obviously have some strong feelings about this project, and it is his place to try and have them addressed.

I'm not offering to take a position on the debate here, merely raising a point.

I don't believe it is fair for a passerby to check in and lay down some judgement on a moment's notice. Let's keep this between Eric and the PPA people, please, and try to resist the temptation to be a joiner. It does no one any good to stand around and root or take sides.

 

[Vdubjunkie]

Quote:

Originally posted by Voodoochile I don't believe it is fair for a passerby to check in and lay down some judgement on a moment's notice

Perhaps I should have put emphasis on the word seems. This word is subjective afterall, and when taken literally can create confusion.

I've reached the level of passerby Woohoo!

 

[Voodoochile]

Actually, it was the word 'chump' that bothered me, not 'seems'.

At any rate, no offense intended by passerby, really.

 

[Vdubjunkie]

Quote:

Originally posted by Voodoochile At any rate, no offense intended by passerby, really.

That's cool. I'm an admitted noob, and was just being facetious.
Quote:

Originally posted by Voodoochile Actually, it was the word 'chump' that bothered me, not 'seems'.

It is also entirely likely that 10 hours into my nightshift I used a hasty adjective based on the idea that his point was not well thought out.

At the end of the day.. It's all good in the neighborhood

 

[erix]

Mods: Could you please move the pertinent posts in this thread to the 'Take It Outside" forum?

Lets leave this thread to PS design. I'm sorry I hi-jacked it.

The topic of commercial posts is an important one and it deserves to be discussed.

tangent: You read my entire post and responded intelligently. Thank you. Understand, it is not you, personally, that I have the issue with.
Quote:

My beef with you and your 'Team' is the obvious commercial intent of the 'Team' posts in this non-commercial forum.

The fact that I'm going off on something you are personally involved with is irrelevant - it might just as well be antness, Tyll, Joe, or any of the other would be commercial poster. To me, 'Team' is another name for corporation and 'Project' is another name for product. Substitute "antness" for 'Team' and "Dynamic" for 'Project' and you will have the same argument.

This is why I also have issue with the apparent double-standard of what is considered a commercial post and what is not.

to all: I would like to discuss these issues and I would like to discuss it in the open, with no name calling and no personal attacks.

I'll by playing by the house rules, won't you?

After school.
Flagpole.
'Take It Outside' forum.

ok,
erix