[tangent]

Quote:

erix??!! You hypocritical person!!"

I don't see it that way at all. You did it to help out the community. You gave us access to a part we couldn't really get any other way. Maybe you don't see it this way, but that's what I think I'm doing with the boards I sell -- it's a way make it easier for DIYers to do their thing. It's not about competition or making a living or anything like that. Heck, I've helped others with boards they've made that compete with mine! Why? Because I thought they were doing something that needed doing. And, I've pooh-poohed other PCBs made here, but not for competitive reasons. I'd make the same criticisms if I weren't making my own boards.

This forum is made of people, and as a human concern, it's imperfect. Sometimes we engineering/computing-minded types forget that.

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Perhaps tangent got the impression it was ok from seeing my experience?

You did what you did before Mall-Fi existed, so different rules applied then.

I'm trying to keep the proper split here on my projects: design stuff in the DIY forum, sales stuff in the Mall-Fi forum and on my site. Jude has just been looking over the PPA thread as a result of all this, and has pointed out a few bits where what I said could be interpreted as marketing, and I'll try to keep that curbed from now on. (I think it was just telling the truth in response to questions, but hey, his site, his rules...)

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I think it is hard to stay on topic because there is only one person/group/entity that seems to be able to do it.

I wish you'd explain that comment. It's vague enough that I can assign several meanings to it, and I don't want to jump to any conclusions.

One thing that I am certain of is that you're trying to broaden the discussion beyond the PPA. But, the PPA is what I know, and it really is what started this thread. You're bringing it under attack, and so I must respond. To broaden the discussion, you'll have to bring other people into it.

 

[tangent]

Quote:

Maybe one forum for newbie/beginners and another for experienced DIYers.

That wouldn't solve anything. This is about commercial interests in the DIY forum, which multiple DIY forums wouldn't solve.

And as a separate issue, multiple DIY forums wouldn't help at all. You'd get newbies posting in the advanced forum either out of ignorance (they think it's a hard question, so they post where the experts are) or because they want the widest possible audience to answer their question. You'd get multiple postings, people having the same discussion in two different forums..... I've seen all of this happen elsewhere. It's a mess. And on the other side of the coin, you get advanced DIYers ignoring the newbie forum, exacerbating the problem -- it gives the newbies an excuse to invade the advanced DIY forum in spite of the rules.

Popularity happens. If you want a low-volume forum, stick to Headwize.

 

[OtterMarc]

Wow is this ever an interesting and valuable thread!

Notwithstanding that one of the well-worded complainants calls himself hypocritical, I saw truth in both arguements.

In some medical on-line forums I'm familiar with, a tremendous quatity and VARIETY of info was available. WAS. Over time, the drug manufacturers became more than advertising sponsors, and now the only info available is "Take this medicine and take that one too and you'll be fine." Interesting that the sponsor makes both of them.

This fine discussion keeps everybody's heads up to prevent the above from happening here, at least I hope it does.

Maybe some of us wish we had more time, more resources, more $$, more drive like the creative ones here. It may well be that the PPA team will become the next Grado. Would many of us do that if we could? hmmm.

At first it was really frustrating, as I also thought, hey, this is borderline commerce stuff, not big bucks Mercedes in the driveway commerce, but more than had been previously acceptable in the DIY forum. But the frustrating part was that after reading different (opposing) posts, both sides have awesome arguements, and perspectives that felt valid and true.

Likely, the PPA project will be available before I even get to build a meta. Oh well! There are far worse things I could be worrying about. I'm connected to the net, have bits to tinker with, food opn the table, love in my life. No monstrous worries.


The fact the moderator(s) chose to keep this topic public rather than hide it offline says something terrific about this audio-loving community. Communities and forums change, grow, evolve. I see this discussion as bringing us together, not dividing. I hope others see it that way too. My nagging question is how do those who were treated more strictly in the past feel. What disrespect have we given them, if any?
Marc the silly otter

Per ardua ad astra (Through adversity to the Stars)

 

[jarthel]

Quote:

Originally posted by erix Well, when I think of anyone offering the DIY'ers a service I think of the Projects on Chu Moy's Headwize site. Chu has done more for this hobby than anyone on the 'Team'. Headwize's project library is chocked full of GOOD designs, WELL documented with theory of operation and practical building advice. And it's all free. Even though the authors of all those projects (including a certain Dynamic amplifier) spent many hours building and tinkering with the design, even though Chu spent hours and hours getting the articles polished and presentable with clear, easy-to-read and understand drawings, they are still free. erix

I totally agree with this paragraph. Headwize is still the best place for headphone amp DIY for me.

The schematics and the associated readings are really helpful!

Jayel

ps. readers take note on the usage of pronouns such as "I" and "me"

 

[jarthel]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter There are many newbie/beginner DIYers (like me) in this forum, so advanced DIYers might not get much advice or help here anymore. What about splitting the DIY forum into several forums? Maybe one forum for newbie/beginners and another for experienced DIYers.

diyaudio.com -->> quite advance DIY where jan didden, nelson pass and other renown names can be find. For beginners too.

But it doesn't deal with headamps.

Headwize for schematics and readings. Headwize/head-fi and diyaudio for questions.

Also headwize forum DIY section seems to be more "productive" than head-fi in terms of quality of post if a variety of amp designs.

 

[rickcr42]

JEEEZ !!!!!!!!!!!

go away for a few days and all hell breeaks loose !

Quote:

There are many newbie/beginner DIYers (like me) in this forum, so advanced DIYers might not get much advice or help here anymore. What about splitting the DIY forum into several forums? Maybe one forum for newbie/beginners and another for experienced DIYers.

not workable.

I would walk away if it ever came down to the "holy elite" looking down at the "lowly" newbs (*snicker* look what the dweebs are up to now)

i personally enjoy helping out the next generation of DIYers/EEs.


the surest way i know of to discourage someone from trying this hobby out is to ignore what may seem like a stupid question but is miles over the head of someone new to the concept of DIY audio electronics

kinda like being lost in the desert with no water and no clue which way to go

or put another way-up the proverbial crap creek without a paddle

though my posting has slacked of late i still bounce in and check the postings

Any question not already answered i do my best to either point the individual in the direction of pertanant information or i attempt to answer the question myself in language that can be clearly understood by the layman

kinda my job (and the salary sucks folks , trust me

)

I relish the "look what I have built" posts.I can almost feel the pride oozing through my monitor and i know that DIY is doing just fine

the meta and ppl threads I , to be honest ,skip past.

having no desire to build either means i can not answer any questions from experience but only from a theoretical viewpoint . Those threads I leave to those with experience in those projects

and as for the commercial/diy gray area -it has been discussed extensively amongst the moderators and to be honest is a point of contention with no real conclusion being no easy call

I can identify with both sides to a point but at the same time there has been a major drift from basic construction of headphone amps and more towards the meta/gilmore/ppl

and while I can understand some wanting to take the easy path for me personally it is the path of scratch construction that in the end will teach the most and offers the most gratification

I could leave the membership in tears (of laughter ?) if i went into detail of all the crap i have blown up over the years due to the most obvious mistakes

But these things are part of the learning curve

real knowledge is never gained second hand but but doing. And making mistakes are put of learning any thing worth the effort

these are the individuals that will always be willing to try a new thing

but there will be those that just want to cut to the chase and build something as painless as possible . they want the thing to work NOW DAMMIT !

they have zero interest in the "how and why" but just want to build soemthing and have it work

is this DIY ?

yes.

just not in the classic breadboard it/test it/tweek it/ build it model

and while I can not fault either camp there does seem to be a shift in these forums towards the easy way out

where this goes from here is anyones guess but it would be nice if no matter where we go from here we keep it civil and not split the community into US against THEM

that would serve no one

ok , i spoke my piece , rambling as it may be

what else is new !

 

[tangent]

Quote:

go away for a few days and all hell breeaks loose !

This particular hell broke loose months ago. Someone just bumped the thread a few days ago, is all.

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i personally enjoy helping out the next generation of DIYers/EEs.

Me, too.

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at the same time there has been a major drift from basic construction of headphone amps and more towards the meta/gilmore/ppl

[snip] Quote:

but there will be those that just want to cut to the chase and build something as painless as possible . they want the thing to work NOW DAMMIT !

I think there are three crowds here.

One is those who are already doing DIY from scratch, and they like it. They may build a PPA or whatever because it's an interesting project, but then they're on to something else. Getting an amp isn't the end goal for these folks, it's the process of building and tweaking it. The availability of PCBs just means more projects to spend time on to these folks.

Then there are those dipping their toes into the water. A few years ago, they may have started with a scratch-built CMoy amp. Today, they may instead start with a META42. This crowd will split into two parts. One part is goal-oriented: they wanted an amp, and now that they have one, they're done. The only thing that has changed for these folks is how much they can accomplish with a given amount of effort. They wouldn't have become deep DIYers anyway. The other part will get addicted and progress deeper into DIY; the only thing that has changed for them is how they were introduced to DIY.

EDIT: grammar fix

 

[rickcr42]

old or new i have missed much in recent times due to long periods of absence so new for me at least,just not as much fun as once was with all the bickering which seemed to have mostly been avoided in the DIY forum but I guess we are not immune either

and still I stand by the point that an overly large portion of the threads have to do with the "big 3"

a bad thing ?

not my call but many seem to have skipped right on past the basic single stage opamp headphone amp AKA the CMOY or gain stage with buffer as second project and right to advanced amps mentioned above due to the availability of pcbs and minikits

again i can not say this is neccessarily bad but due to the threads all over headfi on these amps no one seems to have much interrest in building anything else and again , for me personally, it is extremely boring

gotta crawl before you can walk and walk before run

seems like there are those who want to go from crawling straight to olympic sprinting and then wonder why the hell they trip

but hey,just my opinion.

means nothing

rick

 

[eric343]

Quote:

Originally posted by tangent ]I think there are three crowds here. One is those who are already doing DIY from scratch, and they like it. [...]Then there are those dipping their toes into the water. [...]'t have become deep DIYers anyway. The other part will get addicted and progress deeper into DIY; the only thing that has changed for them is how they were introduced to DIY.

I think there's four, even if the fourth is a crowd of 1 (me): Those who got into DIY doing things from scratch (Cmoy on protoboard, attempting the design of a PCB for an amp that I didn't want to do on protoboard) then got lazy because of the easiness of doing stuff on PCBs and consequently don't like the idea of protoboard, and shy away from attempting amps such as the KGSS, Ppl's portable, oddball push-push solenoid driver amps, random circuit ideas, etc unless there's a PCB availible (or design a PCB and get someone else to tell me it's OK). I suppose I'm exactly the thing Rick's worried about - the Lazy DIYer...

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

I suppose I'm exactly the thing Rick's worried about - the Lazy DIYer...

i guess it kinda sounds like i am being critical and that is not fully my intent

it is just that instant gratification is not as satisfying as going through the steps

just like when i was dating the fun was in the chase , the capture was always a let down if too easy

 

[Voodoochile]

Quote:

(and the salary sucks folks , trust me )

Hey, that's my line!
But I guess I have to share it with millions of other people.