Discrete Sound Cards; Is there really a difference?

[leeperry]

The nice thing about Realtek is that they release new drivers on a monthly basis, most discrete soundcard makers barely release updates twice a year and third party end-users are forced to take matters into their own hands: http://brainbit.wordpress.com/2010/07/19/asus-xonar-unified-drivers/
 
the former sell a crappy sounding ASIC w/ good software support, the latter sell boxes.The only solution to computer audio is drivers-free USB IMHO...no drivers, no problem

 

[Modo]

You do realize that the need to patch drivers over and over doesn't really speak to their quality?

 

[Tomppa]

I find the biggest difference to be in noise, on my main computer the onboard audio is completely useless, plug in some sensitive headphones and endless "sizzlecrackpopsizzlerattlepop" will overpower the music. With some less sensitive headphones it doesn't have power to drive them. I added a Audigy 2 ZS (someone in this thread claimed it is worse than onboard, I want that onboard chip...), now I cannot hear any noise with any headphones at all. Another thing is Creative and their driver support, it seems they are actually trying to make them not work in win7...
 
On my laptops the realtek chips have been much better, some noise is audible with sensitive headphones in a quiet environment if you're really trying to listen for it, but it doesn't disturb when listening to music. 

 

[Vladco]

Quote:

 
 
I'll straight up admit that my ears are pretty bad. All those years with the etymotics and being in the marching band took a toll on my ability to hear high frequencies.However, I've tried/owned several headphones, Shure SE530, DT770, HD650, HD555, HD280, MDR-V6. The differences between each of the brands and models are ENORMOUS. Even between two incredibly high end headphones there is a massive difference. You would think that there would be some kind of a reference sound, given how much focus is put on getting the source perfect. But it's all sound signature. So even if the soundcard does provide some difference, it's minimal. Whereas if that money spent on the soundcard was spent on the headphones, the difference would far outweigh any advantages a soundcard would provide. I agree with the 1/10 or 1/5 soundcard to headphone budget ratio often stated.

If you feed this phones junk difference isn't too significant. So people said what all phoes sound the same aren't wrong in this case.  They cut youself short. They don't like music I gess.
It's very difficult to balance the system especially pricewise.
You can get youself used usb dac and  half way decent interconnect. If you don't like it - sell it and loose a few buks (if done carefull). Of cause home work is mandatory.
Vlad

 

[gnarlsagan]

Quote:

I find the biggest difference to be in noise, on my main computer the onboard audio is completely useless, plug in some sensitive headphones and endless "sizzlecrackpopsizzlerattlepop" will overpower the music. With some less sensitive headphones it doesn't have power to drive them. I added a Audigy 2 ZS (someone in this thread claimed it is worse than onboard, I want that onboard chip...), now I cannot hear any noise with any headphones at all. Another thing is Creative and their driver support, it seems they are actually trying to make them not work in win7...
 
On my laptops the realtek chips have been much better, some noise is audible with sensitive headphones in a quiet environment if you're really trying to listen for it, but it doesn't disturb when listening to music. 

 
+1
 
Except I only added some cheap usb headphone jack and it cut down on the noise entirely. Part of the trick is to turn the computer volume as low as possible while turning the volume up in software (like winamp for me) to the highest level. I read somewhere it was better to keep the volume all the way up in software and just use the hardware volume as a control. Sorry I can't recall the details of that particular claim but it seems to work for me.
 
 

 

[germanium]

Yes, there is a difference though with modern on board sound it can be quite close in terms of listening quality. As others have said the ability to hear it will depend on your associated equipment. I do have equipment that has very high resolution & for the most part even though on board  sound has improved it is still not quite up to the level of add in audio cards such as the Xonar STX/ST or Titanium HD.

 

[NamelessPFG]

 
Quote:

I read somewhere it was better to keep the volume all the way up in software and just use the hardware volume as a control. Sorry I can't recall the details of that particular claim but it seems to work for me. 

I've read that this was due to a quirk with Windows XP's Kmixer, but with the new Vista/Win7 sound stack, quality isn't lost by running at a volume lower than 100%.
 
With my X-Fi Forte, I run at 10% to 25%. This gives me plenty of elbow room to use the EQ without clipping, and since I have to run through a receiver to drive my Stax setup anyway, I just use the receiver's volume control to adjust as needed.

 

[leeperry]

100% digital volume can actually clip: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/tips-techniques/334385-intersample-peaks.html and no amount of analog volume attenuation can reach the signal faithfulness of 64bit float digital attenuation.
 

 

[germanium]

Quote:

100% digital volume can actually clip: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/tips-techniques/334385-intersample-peaks.html and no amount of analog volume attenuation can reach the signal faithfulness of 64bit float digital attenuation.
 

Note that in real music you will never encounter this type of clipping, only with specially fomatted test signals will you encounter this type clipping. It is like comparing a square wave to a clipped sine wave. The clipped sine wave does not ring but the square wave rings clipped or not. A sign wave represents the actual type of waveform that experienced in music along with the associated overtones which in & of themselve can also be represented as sine waves once seperated by test equipment from the fundemental.
 
It is true that digital attenuation is better than analog in several respects. Most analog attenuators have moderate to even huge interchannel volume mismatches or shall I say imballance where as with digital attenuation you simply don't have.
 
With 24 bit attenuation or above you wil never hear any of the distortion that results  from having too few bits at low volume. this distortion is now below the resolution of human hearing unlike with attenuation done in the 16 bit domain.
 
truelly accurate analog volume controls are accuate at the expense of having reduced choice of volume levels as they are made using fixed resistors and unless you spend a ton of money on these you will only get about 24 diferent volume levels to choose from. with proper digital attenuation you will get millions of different levels that are usable.
 
While digtal volume controls may not be totally accurate in all respects analog volume controls are not nessessarily totally accurate either as any capacitance in the signal carrying wiring folowing the analog volume control will cause signal loss due to the high output impedance of the volume control itself especailly at the most likely used volumes. Some equipment has long runs of low grade wiring going to & from the volume control, the longer the wiring the higher the capacitance, the more the capacitance the greater the loss of signal. This loss will vary with volume level as the output impedance changes with volume changes on analog volume contols but not digitally controlled volume. Sound quality will remain more consistant with digtally controlled volume.
 

 

[gnarlsagan]

Thanks germanium that was quite informative.

 

[Astrozombie]

This Realtek HD sounds good to me, i like to use the PC in the family room otherwise my rig has an Xtremegamer, would it really be that much better? I think i will get an E10 and use it out here in the future.
I've heard plenty of people say onboard has pretty much caught up on other forums, but of course you have to test it yourself. All i know for sure is i'm not giving Creative another penny ever again.

 

[NamelessPFG]

 
Quote:

This Realtek HD sounds good to me, i like to use the PC in the family room otherwise my rig has an Xtremegamer, would it really be that much better? I think i will get an E10 and use it out here in the future.
I've heard plenty of people say onboard has pretty much caught up on other forums, but of course you have to test it yourself. All i know for sure is i'm not giving Creative another penny ever again.

I'd think that the XtremeGamer would at least have cleaner analog output, though as for how much cleaner, I can't say. All my X-Fi cards are the Auzentech-built variety, built with better specs to begin with, and the Realtek ALC889A on my motherboard doesn't even come close.
 
The bigger question is whether you have any need for EAX 3.0/4.0/5.0 and CMSS-3D Headphone. I do, which pretty much keeps me tied to Creative-based cards even though I'd like some more options...

 

[leeperry]

CMSS/DH, A friend of mine firmly believes that these are just kludges to overcome output stages crappiness. I tend to agree.
 

 

[ChipnDalebowl]

I used to have a Creative USB card and it had all sorts of issues--clicking, dropouts and interference. Didn't like the CMSS stuff it offered to give you either...I don't think it did much to improve any sound. So yeah, I think we all agree, Creative is definitely one to stay away from!

I've heard plenty of people say onboard has pretty much caught up on other forums, but of course you have to test it yourself.

I'm one of those who agree with this statement. Onboard has definitely gotten very good. Not all onboard is the same, and some are certainly better than others...just have to try it out and see if you have one of the very good ones.

 

[NamelessPFG]

 
Quote:

Originally Posted by leeperry /img/forum/go_quote.gif
CMSS/DH, A friend of mine firmly believes that these are just kludges to overcome output stages crappiness. I tend to agree.

As with anything that uses a generic HRTF for binaural sound, your mileage may vary.
 
In my case, I notice that sound is a tad muffled and veiled for some reason with CMSS-3D Headphone, but in DirectSound3D and OpenAL games, the imaging is noticeably better. Running with pure stereo, I get a strong sensation of left and right, but certainly no sensation of front and back, let alone up and down. CMSS-3D Headphone gives me all of that to a level of accuracy that borders on being an aural wallhack. Maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones in terms of my own HRTF matching up well with the generic HRTF used.
 
In games that have downgraded to XAudio2 and FMOD's way of presenting audio via 7.1 speaker positions at best and stereo at worst, there's still some improvement, but not as much as there could be...and there is absolutely no sense of height whatsoever.
 
Now, if you're trying to replicate the experience of listening to music from loudspeakers, I don't think anything short of the Smyth SVS Realiser will be adequate, and I'm not even certain on that one due to not having experienced it.