Dilemma: Should I not believe any reviewers who talk about cables or just ignore that section of their review?
Jun 11, 2012 at 7:43 PM Post #1,021 of 1,790
Because IC's can and do affect the sound.

When you have two IC's, one for left, and one for right, and the right channel puts 1 volt into the cable, pushing 100 microamps of current into the 10k load at the amp end, what path do you think that current takes to get back to the preamp?

If it's RCA's unbalanced with class 2 equipment, the return is 50% via the right shield, and 50% left shield at low frequency.  If there are safety grounds and 3 prong IEC's, the bulk of the current goes via the third pin of the power cords at lf, changes to 50/50 in the IC's as frequency goes up, and to the signal braid at much higher frequency.


and none of matters as long as you have a well built cable, whether it be Monoprice, Blue Jeans, or $5,000 Audioquest. I've been in multiple DBTs over the years, all of them came to the same conclusion: cables only matter if they're defective. I wish they did alter sound, it would make things more interesting, but they don't.
 
Jun 11, 2012 at 9:12 PM Post #1,022 of 1,790
I hope the OP has received his answer, and a lot more. 
smily_headphones1.gif

 
Jun 11, 2012 at 11:02 PM Post #1,024 of 1,790
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Nah, that joker doesn't know a thing..
 
jnjn

 
Is this meant to be an insult?  Why don't we have a discussion about acrchitecture so I can return the favor?   Thank you for exmplaining Steve
 
Jun 11, 2012 at 11:10 PM Post #1,026 of 1,790
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Um, jnjn was referring to himself when he said that, not you. 
 
se

 
Thanks for explaining that Steve.  I guess I ruled out such modesty too quickly
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Jun 12, 2012 at 12:32 AM Post #1,028 of 1,790
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If you're going to apply transmission line theory at audio frequencies, then your load impedance must also be matched to the line impedance, otherwise, the whole exercise is rather pointless. What good is it to have say, a 100 ohm output impedance driving a 100 ohm line, only to have that line terminated with a 10k ohm load? Are you also modifying your equipment so that their input impedances match the line impedance?
 
And at what frequency are you determining the line's "characteristic impedance"? A cable won't start approaching it's mathematical "characteristic impedance" until you're pretty well out of the audio range. Below that, the cable's impedance continuously rises.
 

se

 
In audio you only have to approach this characterisic impedance at the source end to be effective. All you are trying to do is minimize the effect of cable capacitance which you do by lowering the output impedance to close to the characteristic impedance of the cable. In audio you are not concerned with reflections as you are with RF. The wave lenths are too long, much longer than any audio frequency wire, even at the 40% reduced speed of the electrons in wire. Trying to do this at both ends (source & receiver) means you will loose 1/2 your voltage drive which is ok if you have enough gain to start with but you still have to take into account the fact that some recording are recorded way soft to begin with. The effects of capacitance may seem very subtle of the surface until you experience what reducing it to the absolute minimum on equipment that has a high source impedance. This not so critical on equipment that approches the impedance characteristic of the cable at it's source like Asus soundcards do ( they get very close, an order of manatude closer than most audio componants. Not quite a perfect match but close enough to no longer be an issue. I can now concentrate on other things like my power supply mods that I have aleady done)
 
Coupling is not a problem for me as I D.C. coup[e everything in my system I.E. I have no coupling caps anywhere in my system except for my tweeter amp crossover which cannot be eliminated for obvious reasons. Even that amp though is capable of amplifying D.C. if it were allowed to reach it. I found this arrangement to be the most transperant that when used along with my powersupply mods does a credible job of recreating the sound that I hear from live instruments, even from my small speakers in my room. I've don same type mods to my subwoofer & now have usable response to 16Hz, Flat to 20Hz.
 
I would imagine that most people don't have the resolution capabilities in thier system that mine does. My system has very high resolution & I can hear differences in wiring with this system when used with normal audio componants which have high output impedance (600ohms or higher).
 
Jun 12, 2012 at 9:08 AM Post #1,029 of 1,790
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With the majority of consumer and professional audio equipment, and "regular" construction of commercial rca cables - would you say this is still a concern? 

Yes.  For unbalanced equipment, there is a total lack of control over where the currents are going.  That makes equipment sensitive to AC and hums, buzz, clicks..equipment transients such as HVAC units, nearby lightning discharges due to high rate di/dt.  For pro balanced equipment, they are addressing the pin 1 problem, but to date, only consider the issue to be that of an IR drop.  Everybody I've read has ignored the rate of change of the current in the ground loop.  And, they also ignore the source component output section as being sensitive to ground loop current.
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and none of matters as long as you have a well built cable, whether it be Monoprice, Blue Jeans, or $5,000 Audioquest. I've been in multiple DBTs over the years, all of them came to the same conclusion: cables only matter if they're defective. I wish they did alter sound, it would make things more interesting, but they don't.

Incorrect.  See above.
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IC = Integrated Circuit, not InterConnect.

I used IC to mean Interconect Cable.  A common nomenclature is important.
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In audio you only have to approach this characterisic impedance at the source end to be effective. All you are trying to do is minimize the effect of cable capacitance which you do by lowering the output impedance to close to the characteristic impedance of the cable. In audio you are not concerned with reflections as you are with RF. The wave lenths are too long, much longer than any audio frequency wire, even at the 40% reduced speed of the electrons in wire. Trying to do this at both ends (source & receiver) means you will loose 1/2 your voltage drive which is ok if you have enough gain to start with but you still have to take into account the fact that some recording are recorded way soft to begin with. The effects of capacitance may seem very subtle of the surface until you experience what reducing it to the absolute minimum on equipment that has a high source impedance. This not so critical on equipment that approches the impedance characteristic of the cable at it's source like Asus soundcards do ( they get very close, an order of manatude closer than most audio componants. Not quite a perfect match but close enough to no longer be an issue. I can now concentrate on other things like my power supply mods that I have aleady done)
 
Coupling is not a problem for me as I D.C. coup[e everything in my system I.E. I have no coupling caps anywhere in my system except for my tweeter amp crossover which cannot be eliminated for obvious reasons. Even that amp though is capable of amplifying D.C. if it were allowed to reach it. I found this arrangement to be the most transperant that when used along with my powersupply mods does a credible job of recreating the sound that I hear from live instruments, even from my small speakers in my room. I've don same type mods to my subwoofer & now have usable response to 16Hz, Flat to 20Hz.
 
I would imagine that most people don't have the resolution capabilities in thier system that mine does. My system has very high resolution & I can hear differences in wiring with this system when used with normal audio componants which have high output impedance (600ohms or higher).

Not entirely correct.  In audio, the biggest issue is the load impedance and the mismatch to the line.
 
When the load (Z) is equal to the line, all events at the output are over after one transit at the propagation velocity of the cable.  Nanoseconds.
 
When the load z is several orders of magnitude different than the line, then several hundred reflections are required until the load settles down to the current and voltage that the load needs to satisfy the source.  For example, a 4 ohm load with a 150 ohm zip cable..If the amp steps 40 volts, 10 nanoseconds or so later, the load will be hit with 40 volts, but the cable can only supply 40/150 amperes maximum at this hit.  After hundreds of reflections, the load current will indeed rise to the 10 amperes expected, unfortunately that timeframe is getting into the regime of demonstrated human localization sensitivity.
 
For IC's, it is another ballgame entirely, given that there is really no control over the current path of the ground.  You have no idea (well, you might) how difficult modelling two IC's between components is, given that roughly half the signal return is via the coax driven, the other half is via the other cable braid, and the ratio is slew rate dependent.
 
jnjn
 
Jun 12, 2012 at 9:21 AM Post #1,031 of 1,790
Jun 12, 2012 at 9:47 AM Post #1,032 of 1,790
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I too find your acronym confusing with integrated circuit, especially because both are relevant terms in audio.
Just say "cable" or "interconnect" to avoid confusion; they aren't long words.

Where's the fun in that???
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I have no doubt at all that you hear a difference, a great many people do.

STOP RIGHT THERE..hold your horses...stop the presses...
 
Where did I say I hear a difference?
 
I have pointed out exactly where the flaws in thinking are for all those engineering types who incorrectly state a wire is a wire, all that matters is LRC.  The fact of the matter is, unbalanced equipment BY DESIGN, is an EMC debacle.  For far too long, too many really bad assumptions have ruled the roost.  And buried is that flawed understanding is unbalanced consumer grade audio equipment.
 
Not on my watch anymore.  The audio community needs to be dragged into this century.  It is happening slowly, but inexorably.  Tom Van Doren is one of the few who really get it.
 
http://www.ewh.ieee.org/r5/denver/rockymountainemc/archive/2004/October/Experimental_Demo.pdf
 
There may be two very small errors in this link, but they are certainly not show stoppers..I haven't critically reviewed it since his demo, so don't hold me to it..
 
The difference I have heard is the susceptibility of the system to external E/M  influences.  But given what humans are sensitive to, I certainly could not rule out audibility.  But sitting in the sweet spot by myself (speakers) attempting to discern image changes, that's just not my cup of tea..but that's just me, not everybody.
 
jnjn
 
Jun 12, 2012 at 10:21 AM Post #1,033 of 1,790
Measurable differences? Yes, that can be said. Audible differences? No DBT has shown any proof of that. As long as the cables aren't defective, and are of a proper gauge, they'll sound the same. I'll keep saying that until proper, and pier reviewed, ABX tests are published that show otherwise.
 
Jun 12, 2012 at 10:28 AM Post #1,034 of 1,790
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Measurable differences? Yes, that can be said. Audible differences? No DBT has shown any proof of that. As long as the cables aren't defective, and are of a proper gauge, they'll sound the same. I'll keep saying that until proper, and pier reviewed, ABX tests are published that show otherwise.

Measurable differences?  I also did not say that.
 
DBT's?  You gonna hang your hat on dbt's for interconnects?   REALLY?
 
Man, have I got a bridge to sell you.
 
ps..You have a very very long wait for proper PEER reviewed tests to be presented.  It first requires adherence to basic statistical precepts.....make sure your test regimen is without confounders such that the results of the analysis can be applied to the general population..  I have hilited the relevant "buzz words" as it were...
 
jnjn
 
Jun 12, 2012 at 10:49 AM Post #1,035 of 1,790
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In audio you only have to approach this characterisic impedance at the source end to be effective. All you are trying to do is minimize the effect of cable capacitance which you do by lowering the output impedance to close to the characteristic impedance of the cable.

 
If all you're trying to do is minimize the effect of cable capacitance, then you don't need to invoke such things as characteristic impedance. You just make your output impedance as low as is practical. Simple as that.
 
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I would imagine that most people don't have the resolution capabilities in thier system that mine does. My system has very high resolution & I can hear differences in wiring with this system when used with normal audio componants which have high output impedance (600ohms or higher).

 
Sorry, but vanity and ego (not to mention condescension) don't make for effective arguments in the Sound Science forum.
 
se
 

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