[mike1127]

Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif So you have 30 cent wires but would have us spend lots of time and money proving that cables do make a difference instead of you upgrading your cables to find out for yourself?

As it happens, in uncontrolled listening I felt that cables made a difference and I normally spend from $150-500 on a cable. However, I am always aware this was uncontrolled listening and that I am not above bias. So I open to the possibility I wasted my money. I believe that due to bias effects there is no way to settle the question without blind testing.
-Mike

 

[ILikeMusic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike1127 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do you think how we listen to music has relevance to blind test methodology? I do. Why wouldn't it? Given that anyone can listen to music in just about any way imaginable, why wouldn't that need to be understood and controlled to a certain degree if we want to conduct a valid blind test?

It is controlled in that however an individual listens to music he can apply those listening skills equally when listening to sample A or B, so I don't see how it this would be much of a factor.

 

[olblueyez]

My experience and money has proven to me that they do and no further testing is needed for me, I love my system. I would not change a thing. I did not need any testing to show me the obvious. You cannot affect my reality with your testing.

Here is why: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/ca...5/#post5660813

If you used this forum properly then you would realize my impressions are not of a minority. That is what we can do to help each other is to post impressions so people with AMP (A) can see if Headphone (B) have potential for synergy. If people did more than just write "Get the 701's", then people could have more info to base decisions on. Blind testing will always apply to the participants and no one else. If 50 people say that the Equinox cable adds extension, detail and impact then you have a good idea what is going on with that cable.

 

[mike1127]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILikeMusic /img/forum/go_quote.gif It is controlled in that however an individual listens to music he can apply those listening skills equally when listening to sample A or B, so I don't see how it this would be much of a factor.

Maybe you are a different organism than I am. When I introspect on my process of listening to music, what I notice is this: upon listening to a segment of music several times in a row, I notice different things in the music each time. I also tend to enjoy the music less on repetition (music is not meant to be heard as repeated snippets). That means it is not trivial to control one's manner of listening to samples A and B.

Now, this is what I observe in myself. Maybe other people are different. Maybe some people don't introspect on their listening process at all.

-Mike

 

[mike1127]

Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif My experience and money has proven to me that they do and no further testing is needed for me, I love my system. I would not change a thing. I did not need any testing to show me the obvious. You cannot affect my reality with your testing.

Olblueyez,

I think you lumping me with some other group of people. I have no interest in disproving your reality. I'm not interested in poking fun at you for buying expensive cables---I've bought them myself.

I'm in a middle ground. To me, bias effects are real. And I also have reasons that valid blind testing of music is extraordinarily difficult (much more so than testing food, fragrance, etc). Personally I'm interested in somehow solving this riddle. I will not use the solution to "affect your reality."

Mike

 

[olblueyez]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike1127 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Olblueyez, I think you lumping me with some other group of people. I have no interest in disproving your reality. I'm not interested in poking fun at you for buying expensive cables---I've bought them myself. I'm in a middle ground. To me, bias effects are real. And I also have reasons that valid blind testing of music is extraordinarily difficult (much more so than testing food, fragrance, etc). Personally I'm interested in somehow solving this riddle. I will not use the solution to "affect your reality." Mike

Sorry Bro, changed it for you.

 

[ILikeMusic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike1127 /img/forum/go_quote.gif When I introspect on my process of listening to music, what I notice is this: upon listening to a segment of music several times in a row, I notice different things in the music each time. I also tend to enjoy the music less on repetition (music is not meant to be heard as repeated snippets). That means it is not trivial to control one's manner of listening to samples A and B.

You don't have to listen in snippets, you can listen to each sample as many times and for as long as you like. The only issue is that at some point you are able to positively tell one from the other.

 

[mike1127]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILikeMusic /img/forum/go_quote.gif You don't have to listen in snippets, you can listen to each sample as many times and for as long as you like. The only issue is that at some point you are able to positively tell one from the other.

I understand that, but you are veering away from the issues I raised. I'm still curious to know if you introspect on your own listening process. I'm curious to know if "imagination contamination" makes any sense to you. You also haven't directly answered my question whether a test subject's style or method of listening needs to be controlled---you've implied it simply is easily controlled. But putting time between listens doesn't automatically control it. My own process is complex, and I would probably need a lot of time to do experiments to understand my own workings. I might need to do some blind tests which extended over months. I don't have any local friends interested in helping me with this, so it doesn't look like I'm going to be able to get all the answers I seek. However, my hope is that by exploring what I can, when I can, and dialoguing with other people who've introspected on their listening and testing process, maybe I can get a step closer.
-Mike

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILikeMusic /img/forum/go_quote.gif You don't have to listen in snippets, you can listen to each sample as many times and for as long as you like. The only issue is that at some point you are able to positively tell one from the other.

I am a big fan of blind tests I have tried blind tests with complete tracks and I find it much harder to compare two tracks when the first track was 3 or 5 minutes ago it is very hard to hold details in memory. If the differences are gross then it might be easy but for subtle differences that span of time is not going to help much...I have had much more success with blind tests with fast switching between segments.

As for remembering intricate details of how something sounded a day or a week ago, I am somewhat skeptical about that unless the differences are gross.

 

[ILikeMusic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am a big fan of blind tests I have tried blind tests with complete tracks and I find it much harder to compare two tracks when the first track was 3 or 5 minutes ago it is very hard to hold details in memory. If the differences are gross then it might be easy but for subtle differences that span of time is not going to help much...I have had much more success with blind tests with fast switching between segments. As for remembering intricate details of how something sounded a day or a week ago, I am somewhat skeptical about that unless the differences are gross.

I absolutely agree and yes, in reality most people find it much easier to resolve differences during fast A-B switching. I was only pointing out that one technically doesn't have to compare in quick succession as a way of defusing the very common excuse that trying to do this somehow contaminates the results.

 

[xolp]

I think one major problem with DBT advocates is their tone. DBT is NOT the universal answer to "Are there no audible differences between cables" or "Are expensive cables a waste of money" or worse "Are expensive cable buying audiphiles stupid".

DBT is the answer to "Can I hear audible differences between cables" or "Are expensive cables a waste of money FOR ME"

 

[xolp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif My experience and money has proven to me that they do and no further testing is needed for me, I love my system. I would not change a thing. I did not need any testing to show me the obvious. You cannot affect my reality with your testing.

Agreed, but with you experience and equipment, you can provide the community with additional information as to how the DBT results differ from your observations. This can provide, positve, constructive inputs as to how the DBT can be refined to suit your needs. I'm sure many people may share the same view as you, and a better refined DBT may provide a different way in which others can make purchase decisions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif Here is why: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/ca...5/#post5660813 If you used this forum properly then you would realize my impressions are not of a minority.

Argumentum ad populum?

 

[mike1127]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILikeMusic /img/forum/go_quote.gif I absolutely agree and yes, in reality most people find it much easier to resolve differences during fast A-B switching. I was only pointing out that one technically doesn't have to compare in quick succession as a way of defusing the very common excuse that trying to do this somehow contaminates the results.

This makes it sound like you are not actually interested in understanding perception of music, but just "defusing an objection." In fact it's a bit duplicitous to act like "take your time" is a valid answer, then later reveal you think fast switching is most accurate.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xolp /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think one major problem with DBT advocates is their tone. DBT is NOT the universal answer to "Are there no audible differences between cables" or "Are expensive cables a waste of money" or worse "Are expensive cable buying audiphiles stupid". DBT is the answer to "Can I hear audible differences between cables" or "Are expensive cables a waste of money FOR ME"

Each test is of course just one data point, once you have sufficient data points that are consistent and agree you can start to suggest that a pattern might exist.

To the best of my knowledge all the interconnect cable DBTs so far have pointed in the no difference direction.

I have created samples from my own cable tests and made them available, to date nobody has reported being able to successfully tell them apart in blind tests.

 

[BIG POPPA]

"I love that other issue about measurement vs listening—when people promote the blind panel test, which of course I have no faith in, or even interest in, other than to laugh at. If you were choosing a piano for a concert hall, would you get two or three name pianists that you knew and respected, or would you put it up to a blind committee to help you pick a concert-hall instrument" This is from David Manley of VTL in a Stereophile interview.

Can't argue with the man.