[IPodPJ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif You can't make a claim about it being the jitter without having measured it, period. I'm not doubting that you're serious about making good products, but if you want to be taken seriously here, you have to back up what you claim.

Don't hold your breath. We've asked that countless times (at least a dozen myself) in various threads.

Logitech is the ONLY company I've ever seen that gave FULL jitter measurements for a product, their Transporter:

1. 11ps at oscillator (intrinsic jitter)
2. 17ps at DAC
3. 35ps at S/PDIF receiver

Someone selling a product (reclocker, clock) that [supposedly] reduces jitter should have measurements for the first and third item of the above bullets, and all three if it's a DAC.

 

[anetode]

Just because no one so far has said it explicitly: Any two modern, competently designed DACs sound the same. They're designed to, no black magic involved.

And audioengr? The one whose business is to sell a solution to a problem that doesn't exist? I'm sure that an Empirical Audio mod that takes a few days of messing around and soldering will improve any product that has been designed and prototyped over thousands of hours by multiple engineers.

Jitter's nothing new, PLLs have been around as long as DACs. These days there are custom solutions for re-clocking input that are even more effective, so unless your source is actually broken, the DAC shouldn't choke.

 

[dura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by anetode /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just because no one so far has said it explicitly: Any two modern, competently designed DACs sound the same. They're designed to, no black magic involved.

I disagree, see my post a little bit back; but have to admit of course the 'modern, competently designed'-clause gives every possibility to explain differences in sound signature between DACs.

 

[K3cT]

Wouldn't a different analog output stage give a different sound even if both DACs have the same chip?

 

[audioengr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif You can't make a claim about it being the jitter without having measured it, period. I'm not doubting that you're serious about making good products, but if you want to be taken seriously here, you have to back up what you claim.

Yes I can. Here is why:

The ONLY difference in digital streaming feeds from the same file and computer source is jitter. This is the technical facts.

Therefore, if one sounds better than another, it is lower in audible/objectionable jitter, period. Maybe not lower in absolute jitter, but lower in audible objectionable jitter. This is what really matters.

BTW, I do intend to hire a professional measurement company to do some jitter measurements on my Pace-Car USB when I return from vacation, but only because I got some money back on my tax return and it is being reviewed by the big mazagine.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

 

[audioengr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by anetode /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just because no one so far has said it explicitly: Any two modern, competently designed DACs sound the same. They're designed to, no black magic involved.

You are not even close. I suggest you read some of the other forums or this thread:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/cha...ations-465039/

Quote:

And audioengr? The one whose business is to sell a solution to a problem that doesn't exist? I'm sure that an Empirical Audio mod that takes a few days of messing around and soldering will improve any product that has been designed and prototyped over thousands of hours by multiple engineers.

#1, I dont mod anymore.

#2, the engineers that you are talking about are inexperienced when it comes to digital design. The number of talented digital designers in the high end audio business you can count on one hand. Have you ever read my bio?

#3 The reason that my products get such stellar reviews is that they have the lowest jitter.

Quote:

Jitter's nothing new, PLLs have been around as long as DACs. These days there are custom solutions for re-clocking input that are even more effective, so unless your source is actually broken, the DAC shouldn't choke.

PLL's are a very poor way of reducing jitter.

Read this to learn more:

jitter

And most manufacturers have only acknowledged and attacked jitter in a meaningful way in the last 3-5 years. Prior to that it was a few innovative companies like Audio Alchemy and MSB that were doing interesting things like I2S interfaces. And there were a few devices like the Genesis Lens and the Big Ben that did improve things a bit. However, these are old technologies now. Much has improved in power systems, clocks with really low jitter and isolation techniques. Digital is finally rivalling vinyl.

Those that get on board are reaping the benefits.

Those that keep their heads in the sand never achieve anything.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

 

[leeperry]

Quote:

Originally Posted by anetode /img/forum/go_quote.gif Any two modern, competently designed DACs sound the same. They're designed to, no black magic involved. [..] Jitter's nothing new, PLLs have been around as long as DACs. These days there are custom solutions for re-clocking input that are even more effective, so unless your source is actually broken, the DAC shouldn't choke.

so much cluelessness in the same post deserves an award...here you go, take good care of it:

I agree that your two "ASUS STX, HT Omega Claro Halo" soundblasters sound the same, as I heard both...their crappy DSP/clock and resampling drivers kill the SQ completely.

but opamps color the sound far more than DAC's ever will: Heres some test results for the new ESI Juli@ card. [3] - RightMark Forums
Quote:

Everybody -in different locations, at different times, without knowing from each other- told the same story, that they found the differences between opamps more important than the differences in dac chips.

sure that Benchmark DAC-1 measures great, but its 5532/LM4562 are a big disgrace IMHO...and they sound completely different from NOS DAC's, like those cheapo Valab or higher end R2R.

and then you got the PSU quality, because a cheapo wall wart and a linear regulated DPS sound MILES different..as you're basically listening to the AC power.

and about jitter? I find it highly sarcastic that a MOT keeps nagging every thread about it like he's the word of god...when he doesn't have the proper tools to measure it..

anyway, compare the Asus ST/STX, and don't tell me that jitter is inaudible

their CMI8788 DSP is using a 24.576MHz reference clock(512*48kHz), so jitter at 44.1 sucks...but the ST has a chip trying to improve that hopeless jitter feast

compare both cards a few times, the STX sounds like a big mushy stereo mess and the ST feel fatiguing to the extreme and very sharp/agressive...both are a major failure to my ears.

bottom line is: all the DAC's sound different due to their opamps and PSU for a big part, and to jitter as well(how many use two discrete clocks? not many).

 

[wudai_e]

Audioengr

The price of your Tune Bank alone is enough for me to form an opinion on your product, but... that's just my opinion

and OP, to my experience the price you pay anything higher than 1k for a dac has more to do with it's form and appearance and the over engineered spec and tight tolerance parts being used, the actual sonic differences if any at all is just personal interpretation.

 

[digger945]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dexter3d /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes I know that - I know the recordings that I'm listening to pretty well. I'm wondering where is the point where one can experience a really _noticeable_ improvement in source, as my experience shows that gear in the same price level sounds almost identical.

Do you listen to lots of different recordings, or are you limiting yourself to a select few recordings expecting them to sound different, or better, as you change equipment?

Have you ever listened to the recordings that you refer to on anything else besides your own system/rig?

Edit: if you are able, meets are a good way to experience different stuff, and meet great folks at the same time.

 

[Chippy99]

I think the quality of the input signal (amount of jitter) is a key factor.

I use an Apple TV as my source, playing bit-perfect lossless CD rips. The problem is the very poor quality toslink output from the Apple TV. Feeding cheap DACs, the sound is OK but fairly uninspiring.

When I got a Benchmark DAC1, the improvement was just staggering. At first I couldn't understand why this should be, because my previous DAC featured pretty good electronics with twin phased locked loops to do jitter rejection etc and decent dacs and op amps. But the Benchmark just destroyed it.

I have come to the conclusion that it is the jitter rejection circuitry in the Benchmark that is responsible for the tremendous sound improvement.

I also think this explains why some people prefer all sorts of other dacs (sometimes cheap ones like the Beresford Caiman) to the Benchmark. If the input signal is of a high quality, then even a cheap dac can sound great and the op amps and other electronics have a high degree of influence. However, if the input is jittery then the sound is going to be poor unless the dac can deal with it effectively.

 

[sxr71]

Is Mac Mini + Amarra the best or second best PC based transport?

Yes or no?

If so why or why not?

What other solutions are in that range?