[sajunky]

I've had discussions here on this topic several times and usually it just ends up with messages getting removed once the debate goes on too long.
No evidence has ever been provided to substantiate Sajunky's claims regarding 'scrambling' and plenty to the contrary so I'll just leave it at that

Yes, we had discussion on Denafrips not being NOS (your allegations) due to:

1. Denafrips doing linear interpolation, at a x-times base frequency. Not strictly speaking oversampling as it is usually involved with DSP processing, but it was interesting to see your proof on this issue.

2. Denafrips doing DSP sound processing or filtering (which violated a second condition for NOS). You didn't bring any proof for this allegation.

When Denafrips released 12th models with a real NOS you have repeated tests and confirmed that it was in fact NOS-type sample-and-hold decoding method at a base frequency, but there was still data processing, so it was not a real NOS. I was opposing the later, but mods started deleting posts, in result we don't know to this day whether you have provided a proof for your allegation or not.

On the other side you maintain opinion that Holo Audio is a real NOS, while your own tests provided indication of scrambling a sound. A small amount of dither is transparent to the FFT analysers, but the attempt to linearise ladder errors require huge amount dither at approx 15-bit, so it did show as I pointed out on your own screenshot. However Holo Audio matter is off-topic in this thread, so will leave it for now.

 

[Fugue]

I've had my Venus II 12th for about 3 weeks and love it! It is much less fatiguing yet detailed and more realistic than any chip-based DAC I have owned, including FPGA devices. I was very curious to hear an R-2R DAC, and I'm so glad I took the plunge! I use it with a Roon Nucleus Plus.

 

[mothbhai]

Hi - I just upgraded to the Venus 12th from an Ares II and loving the improvement in sound. My source is an Allo DigiOne Signature DIY streamer connected via Coax S/PDIF. I am wondering if it would actually be better to connect the RPi directly to the Venus via USB vs via the DigiOne hat, as I assume the Venus would have a very good USB section and better clocks than the ones in the DigiOne which are currently encoding the signal for S/PDIF. Another alternative I want to consider is replacing the DigiOne Signature with an i2S hat like the Pi2AES or the Ian Canada one - to avoid USB and send the i2S signal directly to the Venus. Any experiences to share here? I only have that one RPi right now, and will get a fresh one to do the A/B with USB only and report back here, but just wanted to see if this has been solved already.

 

[George Hincapie]

Hi - I just upgraded to the Venus 12th from an Ares II and loving the improvement in sound. My source is an Allo DigiOne Signature DIY streamer connected via Coax S/PDIF. I am wondering if it would actually be better to connect the RPi directly to the Venus via USB vs via the DigiOne hat, as I assume the Venus would have a very good USB section and better clocks than the ones in the DigiOne which are currently encoding the signal for S/PDIF. Another alternative I want to consider is replacing the DigiOne Signature with an i2S hat like the Pi2AES or the Ian Canada one - to avoid USB and send the i2S signal directly to the Venus. Any experiences to share here? I only have that one RPi right now, and will get a fresh one to do the A/B with USB only and report back here, but just wanted to see if this has been solved already.

Honestly, buy Arce or Arcas and stay in the Denafrips ecosystem.

 

[medon]

.... Any experiences to share here? I only have that one RPi right now, and will get a fresh one to do the A/B with USB only and report back here, but just wanted to see if this has been solved already.

My Venus II is quite sensitive to the digital signal's quality.
Granted the Venus 12th is a newer iteration, I think its USB implementation is the same.

Long story short:
Best quality in my experience can be achieved not via USB, but via I2S, possibly from either Hermes or Gaia DDC.
I got myself the Gaia DDC.

USB is second best, if you provide an as-clean-as-possible signal.
Maybe look for an Auralic streamer - older generations work decent and can be had for a fair price. IOS apps only, though.

 

[mothbhai]

My Venus II is quite sensitive to the digital signal's quality.
Granted the Venus 12th is a newer iteration, I think its USB implementation is the same.

Long story short:
Best quality in my experience can be achieved not via USB, but via I2S, possibly from either Hermes or Gaia DDC.
I got myself the Gaia DDC.

USB is second best, if you provide an as-clean-as-possible signal.
Maybe look for an Auralic streamer - older generations work decent and can be had for a fair price. IOS apps only, though.

So just for my understanding - wont the USB section of a high end DAC like the Venus essentially be equivalent to a DDC that sells at 1/4 its price (Iris) - or at least very close (they have the same clocks, power supply stability, buffer etc). I can understand if a higher end DDC (like the Hermes and Gaia as you suggested) would outperform the Venus USB section, but on it own, if it’s close to the Iris - that’s a very solid USB interface.

My original question was - would the USB from a Raspberry Pi 4 directly into the Venus be better than Coax from Allo DigiOne Signature. The DigiOne is no slouch and has TCXO clocks I assume similar class to the Venus so this might not be a slam dunk.

 

[David A Silva]

So just for my understanding - wont the USB section of a high end DAC like the Venus essentially be equivalent to a DDC that sells at 1/4 its price (Iris) - or at

It’s all in the specs on the product webpage. The Iris uses a temperature controlled oscillator, a Hermes uses a more accurate oven controlled oscillator. I believe only the Terminator DAC has a more accurate oscillator…

 

[]eep]

And they say vinyl is complicated...

I wonder why you would want to pair a Rπ to the Venus. Why not just get a real streamer? I've had so many cheap options and I know what it's like if you made something yourself. Now I have some money I can buy some serious gear and get rid of all the higgeldy piggeldy small boxes. I'm so happy with my Rose streamer, (YouTube without adds!) even if some complain about software they don't like. Most rewarding gear I bought in a long time. Of course there are other great picks (Eversolo, Arce, Fiio, etc).
If you want to learn about why streamer quality matters, Hans Beekhuizen explains it very well (see his YouTube channel). Maybe not the most entertaining but he knows his stuff.

I'm still saving for the Venus. It's a lot of money. And other options look tempting too. I'm first going to testdrive the first Fosi ZA3 I just got 5m ago. Optically it would look great with a Holo bookended by two ZA3 (but sonically, probably too bright). I want to see if they are really that good. I noticed a considerably higher electricity bill (more kWh) with my Gato Amp150. And my cat loves keeping me company while sleeping on the Gato. Nice and cozy warm on her little blanket (not on the wood mind you!).

 

[medon]

So just for my understanding - wont the USB section of a high end DAC like the Venus essentially be equivalent to a DDC that sells at 1/4 its price (Iris) - or at least very close (they have the same clocks, power supply stability, buffer etc). I can understand if a higher end DDC (like the Hermes and Gaia as you suggested) would outperform the Venus USB section, but on it own, if it’s close to the Iris - that’s a very solid USB interface.

Unfortunately adding an external USB interface (like the Denafrips DDC) and linking it up with a GOOD (not necessarily expensive) HDMI cable seems to almost always outperform the direct-to-DAC USB. At least my own experience and dozens of users here seem to indicate it's the way it is.

Why that is I have no ultimate understanding. Comparing the types / qualities of clocks may be one part of the answer. Maybe simply adding another fat power supply and off-loading the task of USB receiver + de-jittering to an external device helps to improve timing so dramatically already.

In the end, it seems in digital audio that both reducing noise and jitter on the input is always key to better sound quality, even if it's USB.

My original question was - would the USB from a Raspberry Pi 4 directly into the Venus be better than Coax from Allo DigiOne Signature. The DigiOne is no slouch and has TCXO clocks I assume similar class to the Venus so this might not be a slam dunk.

My guess is that the USB from a Raspberry Pi 4 is worse compared to a well-made SPDIF / Coax solution, because the Raspi is said to have quite a noisy USB out.
BUT a well-made USB out (like the ones in the better audio streamers) will almost certainly outperform any SPDIF/Coax source with the Venus DAC, of probably any Denafrips DAC for that matter.

 

[medon]

....

My guess is that the USB from a Raspberry Pi 4 is worse compared to a well-made SPDIF / Coax solution, because the Raspi is said to have quite a noisy USB out.
BUT a well-made USB out (like the ones in the better audio streamers) will almost certainly outperform any SPDIF/Coax source with the Venus DAC, of probably any Denafrips DAC for that matter.

Paul saw this conversation and made a video about the topic. (o:

 

[]eep]

Well, he's usually right. Except for the time he sniggered at the name Denafrips not realising it's probably his most serious competitor. For DACs anyways.

 

[Weissenborn]

I'm looking for a new R2R DAC.
I'm torn between a Denafrips Venus II 12.1 and a Musician Aquarius. The higher models from this companies are overkill for me to be honest....
How would you describe the tonality of the Venus 12.1 R2R DAC...
I prefer a more neutral / organic with no rolled off treble but still dynamic presentation.

Thanks for your help, folks....

 

[medon]

I'm looking for a new R2R DAC.
I'm torn between a Denafrips Venus II 12.1 and a Musician Aquarius. The higher models from this companies are overkill for me to be honest....
How would you describe the tonality of the Venus 12.1 R2R DAC...
I prefer a more neutral / organic with no rolled off treble but still dynamic presentation.

Thanks for your help, folks....

I have the Venus II (original version without 12th or 12th.1) and ... like it. And I did never ever listen to the Aquarius DAC.
So... probably anything I could tell you is without reference.
Two things from my upgrade journey with Denafrips, that started with the Ares II:
a) the DACs are quite input sensitive. Never mind the "FIFO" marketing flufff - adding a Denafrips DDC in front of the DAC improved things quite a bit.
b) XLR out sounds better. Period.
c) There's at least three different version of firmware for the Venus II (nth) DAC as of now. Personally, I like the latest best -- but some prefer the original 2021 version. Forget about "NOS" mode, most likely.
d) Depending on your A/C situation, be prepared to experiment with power cables. I settled with Supra mid-tier stuff for now.
e) Get a decent streamer with low-jitter/low-noise out.

Cheers!

 

[sajunky]

I'm looking for a new R2R DAC.
I'm torn between a Denafrips Venus II 12.1 and a Musician Aquarius. The higher models from this companies are overkill for me to be honest....
How would you describe the tonality of the Venus 12.1 R2R DAC...
I prefer a more neutral / organic with no rolled off treble but still dynamic presentation.

Thanks for your help, folks....

One of the hardest slamming DAC with no losing low level details and having neutral, natural organic presentation is this; there is comparison with Venus. Old review, but still valid in principles. R-8HE is close to $2K, but has the same features and not much lower quality. Save for a DDC.

I don't know Aquarius, but I think it will fight hard to compete with Venus, more on the marketing side.

A DAC alone is a half way. Think about building a system to the next level. As it was pointed out, you will find a DDC worth to buy. Scale of a benefit depends how noisy is your source, but when a transparency increases, we can hear more. So the advice of getting DDC is valid in majority cases.

Scalability is a key. The next step will be adding power conditioner or external 10MHz clock, so make sure your DAC have a support, or at least a DDC. When you put all together, it will sound better that a top range DAC alone.

 

[Weissenborn]

Is the Venus II 12th one of the faster sounding R2R DACS (EDM and rock tunes) ?
I've red more than one time that R2R dacs are not the fastest ones in general (the most natural sounding but not the fastest sounding).