Denafrips 'Pontus' R2R ladder DAC - close up view

[Ufanco]

Hello people. I've been a member here a little while but not sure if I've ever posted of asked a question..I just read thru comments & reviews of things I've been interested in or need an answer to something. I came out of the dark today as I'm at my wits end with the Pontus 15th.

I'm not using it in a headphone stack & I hope y'all don't hold that against me. I probably could have brought my concerns to a different forum but I feel a lot of y'all here know what you are doing & carry yourself accordingly. I think you guys & girls are a good bunch & know dacs well.

I ordered my 15th in February & received it March 24th. So a little over a month now it's been running a signal at least 16 hours a day.. sometimes 24. I have my TV & a streamer hooked to it... optical & USB though I've tried rca coaxial quite a bit as well.

I've used various preamps though mostly tubes. Icon Audio LA4mkiii Signature & others are kits or customs tube pre's. At this very moment I have the 15th going balanced out to a SPL Volume2..it's just a transparent volume control basically. Into an Arcam PA240 power amp though I've tried my Hypex Nilai, Rotel RB-1582mkii, Van Alstine SET120, Van Alstine Ultravalve, & 2 different DIY/Custom low powered tube amps. Fritz REV7 SE bookshelves & Pro2000 SVS sub though I've tried my Polk R700 & the Elac BS403 bookshelves. I prefer my Fritz. Doesn't matter which equipment I run the Pontus thru as it's basic sound signature thus far stays the same if you know what I mean. Any audible changes are because of the component switch in my opinion.

I have a couple older dacs but I was mainly using my RME in the living room before putting the Pontus in its place. RME worked well with its PEQ which was needed for the R700's & helped with the he Elacs. I've had a boatload of different streamers but I've only used the Zen Stream with Sbooster & the Primare Prisma NP5 with IFI Elite PS with the Pontus 15th.

When I 1st tried the 15th it honestly sounded horrible to me. Wasn't until about 3 weeks til I felt it was kinda on par with the RME as far as just clarity. Although the 15th never really had the glare I could get from the RME at times. The 15th also had a little more depth compared to the slightly flat or constricted depth of the RME. About a month into running the 15th it started to sound like a proper dac. Like a decent chip dac..not what everyone else is perceiving.

Last week after a month of running I'm watching TV & I all of a sudden can hear/perceive the weight to male voices. Smoothness, weight, texture. I'm literally like "Wow, this is what everyone has been babbling about". Very noticeable transformation. I was really impressed. I listened to music for probably 4 hours before I switch it back to TV til I go to bed. Next morning I put a signal thru it & everything is back to sounding like a regular old dac. Kinda fatiguing at loud volumes. I work from home & probably listen to music at least 8 hours a day. Since last week that weighty textured sound has never returned.

I was on the verge of selling the unit last week & then the dac showed me something unique. I'm back to that point where I'm ready to get rid of it. I'm not impressed by it at all. I mostly run it with the Phase light off. OS/Nos light off. I'm assuming it's on Slow Filter. I can either choose 1x on or off. Does the 8x light always stay on when you are choosing between 1x on/off? My 8x light is always lit when I'm choosing between Slow or Fast filter & was curious if this is how it is for everyone.

I've reached out to Denafrips to tell them of my unhappiness & that I don't believe my unit actually received a burn in. It sounded pretty bad to average for about 180 hours. Denafrips told me to get a better streamer. I know my streamers aren't high end but I've demoed more expensive streamers & the ones I've used with the 15th are good enough in my opinion. Does anyone have any thoughts or opinions? Thank you for reading over my long post..but I wanted to give an idea of what's going on with me. The dac has probably 550 to 600 hours of actual signal being played thru it..the other thing Denafrips said was give it more time.

Did I expect too much? Did I imagine those 6 or 7 hours of weighty smooth sound? Isn't 500 hours of break in enough? Is the 15th realistically just slightly better than a RME in a couple ways? Is my slow filter working properly? Did I get a bum dac

Perhaps you become use to having PEQ adjusting the sound with the RME dac. Since using the Pontus 15 it is an adjustment to a different sound quality. Also sounds like you been changing gear a lot trying find what sounds best that might make it more difficult to figure out what sounds best. Try comparing the RME with out using PEQ to the Pontus 15 would be a better way to decide what sound signature you like.

Do you leave the Pontus 15 powered on all the time or do you turn it off between uses. I have read that it’s better to leave it on with a R2R dac. Have you tried NOS mode?

 

[davidbea]

Do people have a preference on which digital input sounds best on the Pontus 15?

 

[sygnus21]

Do people have a preference on which digital input sounds best on the Pontus 15?

Most (me) use I2S, but others use AES, USB. It just depends on gear and configuration needs. I personally recommend I2S, if possible. I would also urge you to read the owner manual.

It also might be educational to cruise through this thread. Not to be confused with read every post. Just look around when you have thine to waste. Never know what you might learn

Welcome to the Pontus 15th. Great sounding DAC.

 

[BigEarfull]

Perhaps you become use to having PEQ adjusting the sound with the RME dac. Since using the Pontus 15 it is an adjustment to a different sound quality. Also sounds like you been changing gear a lot trying find what sounds best that might make it more difficult to figure out what sounds best. Try comparing the RME with out using PEQ to the Pontus 15 would be a better way to decide what sound signature you like.

Do you leave the Pontus 15 powered on all the time or do you turn it off between uses. I have read that it’s better to leave it on with a R2R dac. Have you tried NOS mode?

Thank you for the reply & thoughts.
After the first couple weeks of sticking with the same components I did start switching things around every couple days..wondering about "synergy". My subjective thoughts are that the characteristics of the Pontus just carried over to the other components.

I ran the unit 24/7 for the first 3 weeks..putting it in standby only to switch components. After 3 weeks I was putting the DAC into standby mode at night. Last 4 days I've been keeping it on 24/7..haven't bothered with other components. Normally I keep my dacs on all the time.

I've tried NOS mode for long periods of time. Audible difference between it & OS mode. Can vary from track to track which is better but I think OS is better overall in the high frequencies.

I'm beginning to feel like there is something off with my unit. It's not broken though. It works. It does put center images more in line with the speakers instead of out front like the RME. The 15th doesn't have the glare the RME can have at times but then the Pontus is almost dull in comparison. I think I need to get the dac looked at. Which is what I was hinting to when I reached out to Denafrips & one of their retailers in Texas. They both assume it's either user error or poor accompanying equipment. That's an initial fair assessment as I'm not an expert..but I have been into hifi since the late 80's. No in house experience with R2R but have listened to a friends older Ares II. I felt it had some unique & pleasurable characteristics vs say a basic chip dac.

 

[Smoothstereo]

Thank you for the reply & thoughts.
After the first couple weeks of sticking with the same components I did start switching things around every couple days..wondering about "synergy". My subjective thoughts are that the characteristics of the Pontus just carried over to the other components.

I ran the unit 24/7 for the first 3 weeks..putting it in standby only to switch components. After 3 weeks I was putting the DAC into standby mode at night. Last 4 days I've been keeping it on 24/7..haven't bothered with other components. Normally I keep my dacs on all the time.

I've tried NOS mode for long periods of time. Audible difference between it & OS mode. Can vary from track to track which is better but I think OS is better overall in the high frequencies.

I'm beginning to feel like there is something off with my unit. It's not broken though. It works. It does put center images more in line with the speakers instead of out front like the RME. The 15th doesn't have the glare the RME can have at times but then the Pontus is almost dull in comparison. I think I need to get the dac looked at. Which is what I was hinting to when I reached out to Denafrips & one of their retailers in Texas. They both assume it's either user error or poor accompanying equipment. That's an initial fair assessment as I'm not an expert..but I have been into hifi since the late 80's. No in house experience with R2R but have listened to a friends older Ares II. I felt it had some unique & pleasurable characteristics vs say a basic chip dac.

Are you saying your Pontus 15th plays music inconsistently, like the same exact songs on one day will sound different on another day? If that's the case, maybe the DAC hasn't fully burned in with usage. It took my Pontus2 about 400 hours of actual playtime to settle in. I always leave the DAC on 24/7 and just ran a continuous loop of music to it for 400+ hours.

 

[sygnus21]

I'm beginning to feel like there is something off with my unit. It's not broken though. It works. It does put center images more in line with the speakers instead of out front like the RME. The 15th doesn't have the glare the RME can have at times but then the Pontus is almost dull in comparison. I think I need to get the dac looked at. Which is what I was hinting to when I reached out to Denafrips & one of their retailers in Texas. They both assume it's either user error or poor accompanying equipment. That's an initial fair assessment as I'm not an expert..but I have been into hifi since the late 80's. No in house experience with R2R but have listened to a friends older Ares II. I felt it had some unique & pleasurable characteristics vs say a basic chip dac.

1) Three weeks is not enough burn in time. Not even close. The reality is it takes a few months for the Pontus to settle in. I went through this with both my Pontus 12th-1 and now Pontus 15th.

2) Do check you have the Phase switch set correctly - in-phase when the light is off, inverted when the light is on.

Anyway, I never ran mine 24/7 with music playing. I also didn't leave it on when not in use. I just played it like I do now - every day a few hours a day.

 

[BigEarfull]

1) Three weeks is not enough burn in time. Not even close. The reality is it takes a few months for the Pontus to settle in. I went through this with both my Pontus 12th-1 and now Pontus 15th.

2) Do check you have the Phase switch set correctly - in-phase when the light is off, inverted when the light is on.

Anyway, I never ran mine 24/7 with music playing. I also didn't leave it on when not in use. I just played it like I do now - every day a few hours a day.

Thanks for sharing. Today I believe is 40 days in. "Break-in" was brought up by Denefrips support..claiming that these R2R's don't all settle in at the same time, some do take longer than others. Also telling me not to worry, it will all come together eventually.

I do have my phase set correctly for my equipment. Since I've had my living room TV running thru the dac as well as a streamer it gets plenty of play thru. It's not uncommon for anyone in my family to crash on the couch at any given time..TV running 24hrs a day. We are very free & liberal in my home lol. I also work from home & spend many hours critically & casually listening to music.

And answering @Smoothstereo questions, yes I do feel like the quality is inconsistent. Even though I feel strongly about that I do still consider that our brains/minds can play tricks on us with our perceptions to music. At least this is something I feel strongly about. It's the high frequency's that seem to be the most inconsistent..while also sounding very lean in the midrange. No body or weight to notes.

Either way I will stop being critical about the dac & just it continue to play. I appreciate y'all chiming in & sharing your thoughts & experiences. It was enough to talk me off the ledge & just give the unit some time & patience on my end. I've had oil caps take a good 400 hours to sound right & even though I know the 15th is not an oil capacitor once I was past this time mark on the Pontus I was getting quite discouraged with it.

 

[sygnus21]

Thanks for sharing. Today I believe is 40 days in. "Break-in" was brought up by Denefrips support..claiming that these R2R's don't all settle in at the same time, some do take longer than others. Also telling me not to worry, it will all come together eventually.

I'm just telling you it's going to take a few months. Anyone of use who's had this DAC for 6 months or longer is going to say the same.

I've got two Pontus DACs, and both didn't settle until at least a few months in. During that time, you will hear the DAC go through several phases, but once it settles any "muddiness" will be gone and there will be a lushness and clarity that you hadn't noticed before. You can't put a definitive time frame on it; it will happen when it happens.

As someone told me long ago in this thread.... you just have to be patient. I've had my Pontus 15th since December, and it's finally settled.

when I reached out to Denafrips & one of their retailers in Texas. They both assume it's either user error or poor accompanying equipment. That's an initial fair assessment as I'm not an expert..but I have been into hifi since the late 80's. No in house experience with R2R but have listened to a friends older Ares II. I felt it had some unique & pleasurable characteristics vs say a basic chip dac.

I'm curious to hear specifically what Denafrips said to you when you said the DAC didn't sound right? I'm imagine it was something along the lines of "give it a little more time".

Also curious how the DAC is hooked up - what input and out connections are you using? Are you using both RCA and XLR connection from DAC to other gear?

 

[BigEarfull]

I'm just telling you it's going to take a few months. Anyone of use who's had this DAC for 6 months or longer is going to say the same.

I've got two Pontus DACs, and both didn't settle until at least a few months in. During that time, you will hear the DAC go through several phases, but once it settles any "muddiness" will be gone and there will be a lushness and clarity that you hadn't noticed before. You can't put a definitive time frame on it; it will happen when it happens.

As someone told me long ago in this thread.... you just have to be patient. I've had my Pontus 15th since December, and it's finally settled.


I'm curious to hear specifically what Denafrips said to you when you said the DAC didn't sound right? I'm imagine it was something along the lines of "give it a little more time".

Also curious how the DAC is hooked up - what input and out connections are you using? Are you using both RCA and XLR connection from DAC to other gear?

TV is optical, Streamer is USB. I used rca coax for a little bit at one point when I tried a different streamer. Initially output was single ended but the last week running balanced thru out the system.

I had a little back n forth with Denafrips. They touched on longer burn-in process with each reply. Things like they are not all equal in time. Because it's an R2R decoder it can be awhile before it reaches an extremely pleasing sound quality. At one point they assured me that as I use it for a longer period it will become more pleasant & transparent. At some point I didn't share their confidence & optimism & they mentioned to look at my other components..the dac will sound best with better components. I'm sure I can find our correspondence & see what exact words they used..but basically it was to give it more time.

You seem to have true hands/ears on experience with these dacs & I will follow your thoughts & advice. I will chill & give it the time needed.

 

[sygnus21]

LOL - looking at some old posts here I had to laugh when I saw this....

Anyway, I certainly don't plan on dumping my Pontus II12th-1 for the 15th. If anything, I would dump it for the Venus, and I don't even see that in the cards.

Yet that's exactly what I did....

Had to edit my previous post as this site no longer allows back-to-back posts Will keep my cuss words mute. Anyway...

Many have stated the Pontus 15th is now the old Venus 12th-1. Don't know if that's true, but the innards of the Pontus 15th certainly look like a Venus 12th-1. Left: Pontus 15th, Right: Pontus 12th-1....

​

But it did turn out the Pontus 15 is a previous Venus 12th-1 with upgrades

Anyway,....

TV is optical, Streamer is USB. I used rca coax for a little bit at one point when I tried a different streamer. Initially output was single ended but the last week running balanced thru out the system.

I had a little back n forth with Denafrips. They touched on longer burn-in process with each reply. Things like they are not all equal in time. Because it's an R2R decoder it can be awhile before it reaches an extremely pleasing sound quality. At one point they assured me that as I use it for a longer period it will become more pleasant & transparent.

At the end of the day you're going to have to develop patience and let the DAC go through its phases. I would at least give it about two months.

You seem to have true hands/ears on experience with these dacs & I will follow your thoughts & advice. I will chill & give it the time needed.

I'm not going to come anywhere near to claiming audio expertise, I'm just posting on my experiences with two Pontus DACs, and they both took a few months to finally settle. I know Denafrips claims about 300 hours burn in time, but I honestly think it's a lot more.

All that said, if you truly feel the DAC isn't operating correctly then yeah, return it.

Let us know.

 

[BigEarfull]

LOL - looking at some old posts here I had to laugh when I saw this....

Yet that's exactly what I did....

But it did turn out the Pontus 15 is a previous Venus 12th-1 with upgrades

Anyway,....


At the end of the day you're going to have to develop patience and let the DAC go through its phases. I would at least give it about two months.


I'm not going to come anywhere near to claiming audio expertise, I'm just posting on my experiences with two Pontus DACs, and they both took a few months to finally settle. I know Denafrips claims about 300 hours burn in time, but I honestly think it's a lot more.

All that said, if you truly feel the DAC isn't operating correctly then yeah, return it.

Let us know.

Well one of the reasons I posted my question or concerns here was because I had read posts from people like yourself that have hands on experience with more than one Denafrips dacs.

I was thinking I won't make any more rash judgements until after a couple months. I'll come to a conclusion after that time period. I'll certainly share if things get better or not for me. Thanks again

 

[NeudorfDani41]

Yeah same here, this one’s got my attention big time. Kinda hard to ignore with those specs. Shame about the shipping cost though, that always stings

 

[sygnus21]

Well one of the reasons I posted my question or concerns here was because I had read posts from people like yourself that have hands on experience with more than one Denafrips dacs.

I was thinking I won't make any more rash judgements until after a couple months. I'll come to a conclusion after that time period. I'll certainly share if things get better or not for me. Thanks again

The Pontus 15th is a great sounding DAC, especially after it settles in, but I'll say again, if you really feel there's something wrong send it back. Don't wait.

Yeah same here, this one’s got my attention big time. Kinda hard to ignore with those specs. Shame about the shipping cost though, that always stings

Shipping was free me buying direct from Denafrips and shipping to the USA, but I got mine before that idiot got in office.

Can't speak on shipping to Germany or any other countries though.

 

[BigEarfull]

The Pontus 15th is a great sounding DAC, especially after it settles in, but I'll say again, if you really feel there's something wrong send it back. Don't wait.


Shipping was free me buying direct from Denafrips and shipping to the USA, but I got mine before that idiot got in office.

Can't speak on shipping to Germany or any other countries though.

It does work. Though it did something goofy today. The balanced preamp I've been using for the last week has no single ended outputs for my sub. So I shut everything down & put the SVS line level to RCA box on my amplifier speaker outputs. Wonderful device which allows you to use a sub in any system or without using Y adapters. I've had issues with ground noise using Y adapters on tube preamps.
But anyway, while I was doing that I unplugged the Pontus & switched power cables. When I turned everything back on no signal was coming thru. Checked all my wiring & all was kosher. So I manually switched inputs & when I went back around to the input I was using at start up the sound came thru as usual. I waited awhile for it to pass a signal before I switched thru all the unused inputs.

This also happened when I very first hooked up the Dac. Plugged it in & it was in stand by mode. Turned it on after the preamp & then the rest of the system. No sound from optical & then none from coaxial..which is how I had the streamer set up initially. After maybe 2 minutes of cycling back n forth between both inputs which were active the dac just suddenly started passing the signal. Obviously I thought this was odd & maybe a bad sign but I just chalked it up to the tons of capacitors charging for the first time.

Now that it happened again I am going to let Denafrips know & see what their response is.

 

[Seele01]

hello everyone !

i just ordered my first R2R Dac to replace my very old entry level audio gd dac from 2013 ( NFB-17.32)

i choose the Pontus 15th and i'm eager to listen to the difference, i have a pretty resolving system now, so i have some expectations. Is it easy to spot difference between a delta sigma and R2R sound?