[David A Silva]

What is the electronic/sciencetific/engineering principle that changes sound or bits as you change an hdmi cable?

I must be missing something… I find absolutly no difference in a 500€ tubulus hdmi or a regular 10€ hdmi cable.

But probably my room and system are not good enough

Nice hardware buddy!

 

[CAJames]

Sorry guys, need to stray off the "12th firmware" topic once again and come back to the DDC / Gaia topic one more time.

Just FYI/FWIW there is a thread dedicated to Denafrips DDCs

Here.

 

[Funnychap]

I have the Denafrips Ares II 12th and I received the firmware v1.8 in 2 days (I requested on Saturday and got it on Monday).
It does sound better....better bass, taller soundstage, and the vocalist sounds more real in the room than ever.

I did the firmware update with my Windows 11 Home laptop, but the instructions were for Windows 10 so it was a little confusing. Alvin from VineshineAudio was helpful even though he was traveling.

NOTE: I am also using a Denafrips Iris 12th (a DDC which I highly recommend) via the i2S port.
---
If anyone has both the Denafrips Ares II 12th with the latest v1.8 firmware and the Iris 12th, as well as a Pontus II or Pontus II 12th, I'd be curious if you would let us know how close does the Ares now come to the Pontus...would it still be worth it to upgrade to the Pontus?

 

[Funnychap]

I have the Denafrips Ares II 12th and I received the firmware v1.8 in 2 days (I requested on Saturday and got it on Monday).
It does sound better.

I did the firmware update with my Windows 11 Home laptop, but the instructions were for Windows 10 so it was a little confusing. Alvin from VineshineAudio was helpful even though he was traveling.

NOTE: I am also using a Denafrips Iris 12th (a DDC which I highly recommend) via the i2S port.
---
If anyone has both the Denafrips Ares II 12th with the latest v1.8 firmware and the Iris 12th, as well as a Pontus II or Pontus II 12th, I'd be curious if you would let us know how close does the Ares now come to the Pontus...would it still be worth it to upgrade to the Pontus?

I've just received an email from VineshineAudio, they said:
Please allow some time for the FPGA to burn in for optimum sound reproduction.

 

[David A Silva]

I've just received an email from VineshineAudio, they said:
Please allow some time for the FPGA to burn in for optimum sound reproduction.

Yes. 100-200 hours burn in for best results. It starts out good and just gets better.

 

[prima186]

Sorry guys, need to stray off the "12th firmware" topic once again and come back to the DDC / Gaia topic one more time.
Thanks to Gary88's hint I ordered a certain "HDMI" cable specifically made to be an I2S interconnect.

Left: Audioquest Carbon HDMI; Right: AVplay HD-300

I have to say results are embarrassing.
Let me explain:
So far, I tried three different HDMI (video) cables. One was a generic Amazon 9,99 cable I have on my computer to connect the display. It's doing fine there, but is crap for the Gaia/Venus combo, even much worse that direct streamer--USB-->VENUS connection. I wasn't really surprised.

Next, I borrowed two HDMI cables of higher quality from my HiFi dealer's - both Audioquest; one time a "Chocolate" - albeit a very long one (3m). This sounded MUCH better than the generic HDMI cable. It made the promise of a DDC true: better SQ compared to direct streamer-->DAC connection true. No wonder so far.

The Audioquest Carbon I borrowed next is already quite short (good that is, I guess) and priced around 150-200 - so: not exactly cheap. This cable sounds a small tad better compared to the much longer-than-needed (3 meters) "Chocolate", so I thought the optimum might be close. I thought, the AQ "Carbon" might be already at 98% and therefore good enough - for me.

Unfortunately, this is not true.
Let me clarify: I tried only one and a single copy of these AQ cables each, and these are not brand new cables but have been in use for a while. So they might be damaged somehow -- maybe. Honestly I don't think so, but it cannot be ruled out.

Anyway: The special silver HDMI cable puts SO MUCH more clarity and bass definition into my chain, it's both exciting but also a little bit frustrating IMHO.

It's exciting because it sounds amazing, and the price is really competitive - got it for less than 70 EUR/USD via AliExpress. After an ~5k invest into Gaia+Venus this is simply a no-brainer, cost-wise.

What leaves me scratching my head is: The concept of selling DDCs and DACs with the possibility of using HDMI cables as interconnects is appealing.
But since obviously the quality of this HDMI cable is so very much deciding about the quality improvement that can be had by adding a DDC, in my humble opinion every seller of DDC/DAC combos (which Vinshine is) could/should lend their customers a helping hand by offering a tried-and-true high performance cable like this one right within the box.

After all, adding a Denafrips DDC to your Denafrips DAC digital front end is meant to be a sound quality upgrade for 99% of users - not many will aim for more connectivity I guess.

A DDC is quite a lot of money. If the results of adding this DDC can be boosted by 50 or even 100% by adding a moderately priced, specialized cable like the one I got, this is a MUST.
I mean... who would have guessed that a standard higher-than-average quality HDMI cable like the AQ cables mentioned above simply don't fare well in this Denafrips DDC/DAC combo?

Anyway. Hope you guys don't mind my abuse of this "12th firmware" thread. Cheers, happy listening! Or, as Hans would say: Enjoy the music.

I also use "AVPLAY HD-300".
I use it on Pontus II.
Length is 0.75m.

As for the sound quality, the sound extends well up and down, and there is no drawback that certain parts are emphasized.
*Left and right channels are reversed when used with Pontus II.

 

[Gary88]

Yes. 100-200 hours burn in for best results. It starts out good and just gets better.

150hrs for my case ... I no longer flashed back to v1.0.

 

[Remd]

What is the electronic/sciencetific/engineering principle that changes sound or bits as you change an hdmi cable?

I must be missing something… I find absolutly no difference in a 500€ tubulus hdmi or a regular 10€ hdmi cable.

But probably my room and system are not good enough

According the type of material used, it seems logic, your system seems to have a specific sound coloration and isn't neutral (some may prefer not neutral sound which can make some kind of music sound more like the listener would like have)

Tubulus are neutral cables and I can affirm that the tubulus concentus is far far above the supposed best HDMI used on I2S QED thunderbird (priced above the concentus).
Now, in a colored system, a not neutral cable can change the coloration and make the sound more neutral but with less micro details and soundstage (having all neutral will provide the more high-end quality, emotion and soundstage (A very high-end neutral cable on a sound colored will let hear all details from the music but of the system too)
Some cables bought directly from Chinas at low price can be or not (is the quality always the same ?) better than many local cables up to nearly 2 times the price. But about the Tubulus concentus cable, this one is already able to compet with cables near 2500€ while it is less than 650€ (today I could not find any other I2S HDMI cable able to compet with this tubulus concentus cable (the argentus is more comparable to the QED thunderbird), it needs a long time to burn-in and its only default I could see are the big hdmi connectors and the weight but these default are easy to live with. To be sure having the connector oriented in the right angle, the best is to provide a photo of the HDMI plugs of both materials like it is supposed to be installed. This may prevent having to force on the cable which should not be done).

For full neutral system, I didn't find better cable than the tubulus until now.
For not fully or not neutral system, may be some other I2S cables could provide the sound expected by the listener and the most important is that the sound is what the listener would like have (but of course, not comparable in details, soundstage and all music style compatible like a full neutral system)
Of course, the rooms acoustic has a big impact toot (on the photos, it seems that a big work was done on this aspect, nice)

I found following on Youtube and I fully agree with him (rare !)
(part 1)
(part 2)

 

[reydelanada]

According the type of material used, it seems logic, your system seems to have a specific sound coloration and isn't neutral (some may prefer not neutral sound which can make some kind of music sound more like the listener would like have)

Tubulus are neutral cables and I can affirm that the tubulus concentus is far far above the supposed best HDMI used on I2S QED thunderbird (priced above the concentus).
Now, in a colored system, a not neutral cable can change the coloration and make the sound more neutral but with less micro details and soundstage (having all neutral will provide the more high-end quality, emotion and soundstage (A very high-end neutral cable on a sound colored will let hear all details from the music but of the system too)
Some cables bought directly from Chinas at low price can be or not (is the quality always the same ?) better than many local cables up to nearly 2 times the price. But about the Tubulus concentus cable, this one is already able to compet with cables near 2500€ while it is less than 650€ (today I could not find any other I2S HDMI cable able to compet with this tubulus concentus cable (the argentus is more comparable to the QED thunderbird), it needs a long time to burn-in and its only default I could see are the big hdmi connectors and the weight but these default are easy to live with. To be sure having the connector oriented in the right angle, the best is to provide a photo of the HDMI plugs of both materials like it is supposed to be installed. This may prevent having to force on the cable which should not be done).

For full neutral system, I didn't find better cable than the tubulus until now.
For not fully or not neutral system, may be some other I2S cables could provide the sound expected by the listener and the most important is that the sound is what the listener would like have (but of course, not comparable in details, soundstage and all music style compatible like a full neutral system)
Of course, the rooms acoustic has a big impact toot (on the photos, it seems that a big work was done on this aspect, nice)

I found following on Youtube and I fully agree with him (rare !)
(part 1)
(part 2)

According the type of material used, it seems logic, your system seems to have a specific sound

No, logic says cables do not change how bit's are carried from point A to B. The only thing a poor cable can cause is adding noise (hum, emi, etc) which is something very easy to measure and detect. Neither the time or frecuency domain are affected. Emotion or soundstage are not affected or caused by any digital cable. Soundstage is a complex concept but 90% of it comes from you speaker position and room interaction. It's all science and it's all very well documented.

I appreciate yor answer, but there's none scientific / physical / electrical proof of your theory about how can a digital cable change the sound. The incredible non humman audible properties of a youtouber is not any scientific proof, unless you count as a scientific argument his golden tongue.

Regards!

 

[medon]

No, logic says cables do not change how bit's are carried from point A to B. The only thing a poor cable can cause is adding noise (hum, emi, etc) which is something very easy to measure and detect. Neither the time or frecuency domain are affected. Emotion or soundstage are not affected or caused by any digital cable. Soundstage is a complex concept but 90% of it comes from you speaker position and room interaction. It's all science and it's all very well documented.

I appreciate yor answer, but there's none scientific / physical / electrical proof of your theory about how can a digital cable change the sound. The incredible non humman audible properties of a youtouber is not any scientific proof, unless you count as a scientific argument his golden tongue.

Regards!

There is no such thing as a digital cable.
Cables are analog.

 

[reydelanada]

I ment cabels used to carry digital signals. I know cables just carry an electric impulse (or whatever you call that in english... sorry my technical english is far from good).

 

[medon]

I ment cabels used to carry digital signals. I know cables just carry an electric impulse (or whatever you call that in english... sorry my technical english is far from good).

Hans Beekhuyzen
https://m.youtube.com/c/TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel

... has a very good YT channel. In several videos he explains in detail what digital music signals really are (analog signal that resemble ideal square signals, but aren't).

In the end all kinds of analog disturbances make some twisted analog signal of what are thought to be square / "digital" signals.
But since they are imperfect, they can and will induce jitter to a certain degree.

Additionally, electrical noise or potential differences between devices in a chain might have further negative impact on sound quality.

 

[Palyodgree]

No, logic says cables do not change how bit's are carried from point A to B. The only thing a poor cable can cause is adding noise (hum, emi, etc) which is something very easy to measure and detect. Neither the time or frecuency domain are affected. Emotion or soundstage are not affected or caused by any digital cable. Soundstage is a complex concept but 90% of it comes from you speaker position and room interaction. It's all science and it's all very well documented.

I appreciate yor answer, but there's none scientific / physical / electrical proof of your theory about how can a digital cable change the sound. The incredible non humman audible properties of a youtouber is not any scientific proof, unless you count as a scientific argument his golden tongue.

Regards!

LOL your da man !

 

[Riccioli30]

Hans Beekhuyzen
https://m.youtube.com/c/TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel

... has a very good YT channel. In several videos he explains in detail what digital music signals really are (analog signal that resemble ideal square signals, but aren't).

In the end all kinds of analog disturbances make some twisted analog signal of what are thought to be square / "digital" signals.
But since they are imperfect, they can and will induce jitter to a certain degree.

Additionally, electrical noise or potential differences between devices in a chain might have further negative impact on sound quality.

old question. Listening versus measures. I remember it from when Bruce Brisson (MIT cable) talked about it in the 80s. I experienced it right away. When listening, I have always found differences between digital cables (also ATeT high-speed optical, fiber or glass) and, also among all the others - signal cables, loudspeakers and power supply cables - even top ones and at the same price. But of course all IMHO.

 

[Remd]

No, logic says cables do not change how bit's are carried from point A to B. The only thing a poor cable can cause is adding noise (hum, emi, etc) which is something very easy to measure and detect. Neither the time or frecuency domain are affected. Emotion or soundstage are not affected or caused by any digital cable. Soundstage is a complex concept but 90% of it comes from you speaker position and room interaction. It's all science and it's all very well documented.

I appreciate yor answer, but there's none scientific / physical / electrical proof of your theory about how can a digital cable change the sound. The incredible non humman audible properties of a youtouber is not any scientific proof, unless you count as a scientific argument his golden tongue.

Regards!

LOL, you make affirmation without any scientific arguments too !
Can you provide the impedance of each cable you tested ? can you provide signal form (clock speed) at send and receive side loading the cable with a correct impedance ?


nearly 100% wrong (review what you learned at scool. A cable is a impedance (capacity value + resistance + inductance which all does a filter impacting the forme of the digital signal and with a very bad long digital cable it can be malformed up to look like a bad analog signal due to lost of high harmonics).
That means your digital signal arrives malformed and end equipment has to correct the signal (including some not perfect time width pulse etc... less the arriving signal is malformed and better the ligne is isolated from external interference, better is the final result) and if clock isn't perfect, reclocking may be needed and this is what DDC do.

Having a very good digital cable with perfect isolation and a perfect respect of digital pulse, less work has to be done by the receiver aquipement resulting into better final sound. I confirm that the change can be nearly as big as changing analog cables (there is a difference between theory and practicall, this is why most use theory as first approach and to get a perfect result use practicall (earing sessions) to get the best out of type of material used: ex: cupper, Ag, gold, mixed cupper Ag etc...

Other exemple: (simplified view) No audio signal (no digital and no analog) goes through a power cable, it only loads capacitors but changing it will impact a lot the final sound (in all aspects)