[Nada]

Ares II doesn't sound quite as full bodied or have quite that "presence" as the r2r-11mk

I see that Audio-gd is both an R2R DAC and headamp http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R11MK2/R11mk2EN_Specs.htm so it looks like great value compared to even the Ares.

I havent heard it so wonder if you can fill me in on in compared to the Ares that many of us know.

Did you try the Audio-gd just as a DAC output (without the headamp) to compare it with the Ares?

What did you think of the headamp out of the R2R-11 mk2? Thanks!

 

[szore]

AresII and Jotunheim2...all you need!

 

[whitedragem]

All I know is that I’m enjoying the sound from my 2 channel setup .. it is sounding great with the Ares 12th … though I have a Schiit lokius with the two lower frequency dials on the plus side…

I don’t qualify as an audiophile… I just want to enjoy my music

I was originally debating if I should get the Pontus 2 … once the ares 12th was out I thought it a good first step for a R2R DAC

At this point I will just wait for a Pontus 3 or another quality R2R …
I don’t use a PC (or any computer) in my setup so I can’t up sample prior to the DAC

When I wanted to start playing with upsampling, having seen a Note20 phone on clearance at a local Office Supplies store (at 1/3rd its New cost), I thought I’d TRY an experiment that had been on my mind for awhile.
My motivations were towards upsampling to DSD (from redbook PCM), depending on the DAC to be used, there are benefits to doing this (Denafrips doesn’t demand this at all), but the same process I was using ALSO allows upsampling to high sampling rate PCM…
So I installed from the android store (Play store) some software called (Onkyo) HF Player.
The licensed version of HF Player allows upsampling to high quality DSD (5.6Mhz) (as well as 768khz PCM I believe); and I knew that pushing the ‘higher conversion rate’ DSD would hit the processor- the whole point of the test was to see if low powered ARM CPUs had ‘enough grunt’ to do the trick and IF THEY WOULD COOK THEMSELVES doing so (No- runs cool, and has ‘long’ battery life); so - CPUs have evolved enough that a recent ARM CPU as found in modern phones, can do ‘on the fly’ conversion/upscaling…

Now- to be fair- that Android phone was a nightmare to configure to get it to sound ‘equal’ to a basic DAP (Digital Audio Player -aka ‘dedicated’ audio device)- if I tweaked approaching 30 settings in the Android OS, I could strip the phone back to being a basic ‘dedicated’ computer, that did an ‘acceptible’ job as a digital transport..
but-
for my testing it was enough- showed me that a modern CPU could do the transform function ‘easily’, and I invested into a FiiO M11+ music player (mostly due to the the dual ‘femto second clocks’ and super clever dedicated power optmisation and ‘shiedling’/isolation etc.
The FiiO M11+ (DAP) smokes a flagship phone as a dedicated transport, but many would argue that ‘all transports are equal’, so lets just accept that some android software (Onkyo) HF Player, can ‘do a trick’, and that this trick might be worth implementing..
(I only had to buy the software once and I use on a huge range of devices)

So, a phone has ‘no fans’ (runs quiet) and CAN DO upsampling trickery.
I did find that locking the upsampling to ‘a neat multiple’ of the source sampling rate, sounded akin to not upsampled audio source (ie it was doing the trick right, and ‘somewhat cleanly’)
The Android phone test was enough for me to check that I could find improvements in my audio when coming from different sources (ie Apple Music from the FiiO M11+ is perfect and vastly better than Apple Music (software) interfaces via webpages (recommended from Windows PCs as I think it allows a higher quality AAC stream (gives another khz or so in the upper frequencies vs AAC files from ‘regular’ Apple Music software on PC?), and the webbrowser version ‘sips power’ whilst giving access to ‘lossless’ etc..
Anyhow as great as having nice electronics do dedicated tricks, some ‘software’ can go a long way.
(if you use a crappy D/S DAC that favours DSD (ie ‘cheap PCM filters’), then DSD upconversion is ‘a thing’ you may wish to consider in the interim (until ye find a nice R2R!?))

Onkyo HF Player is android software that does ‘on the fly’ DSD conversion AND high sampling rate PCM.. It may allow some testing for readers here…(?)

Does the Ares II sound significantly better in a speaker system than it does in a headphone system?

Depends on systems (great rhetorical question though)..

Sure it can open up a system held back ,and it scales with better associated equipment.
Mostly a headphone rig costs a small portion of the money required by an ‘equivalent sound quality’ hifi (speakers) rig.

Having heard a Denafrips on a reference hifi rig, I’d say, many headphone listeners might not know just how great these DACs are.
Whilst I have some flagship headphones that have detail for miles, and proper kit to feed them, some traits I am looking for, when doing upstream/front end testing, is not easily revealed on headphones, and ‘a few moments’ of hearing said kit on ‘the nice DEN setup’ is hyper revealing.

In fact when I was trying to figure the sonic benefits (if any) of an iFi Diablo over a Chord Hugo, I had given a week/ten days of ‘critical/focused’ headphone listening that ‘less than 30 seconds’ on the Den hifi rig, the child had made observations in ‘30 seconds’ that had taken me ‘well over a week’ to discern ‘via headphones’ (>3k pricepoint headphones too)

Everything can be simplified if we consider ‘pricepoints’ (and assume well integrated systems/‘synergy’), and ‘yes’ some top tier kit (either headphones or hifi) can reveal nuances that ‘lesser kit’ may miss.. but that kit will resolve more on better setups.
Whether YOUR hifi setup is better than the equivalency of your ‘head-fi’ rig; only you would know…
I find ‘by modern world pricepoints’ I can not afford great (modern) two channel kit.
But if I am willing to build a two channel HiFi rig using SOME second hand parts, for $5k-$10 I can build a ‘reference’ rig that would hold its own’ nicely against ‘higher pricepoints’ (not THE BEST in the world, sure,. but can suggest, or ‘approximate’ to what SOME PEOPLE achieve with infinite budgets..- albeit with a much lower WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) as the aesthetics of a ‘hodge podge’ setup might not always match (I have champagne gold coloured power amp in an ‘all black’ surround rig, or a Proceed AVP2 doesn’t look like anything else that might go in the ‘dedicated’ two channel setup..)
Forgoing looks, I can get a lot of bang/buck in the second hand market, sure…

Buying new.. I think it would be hard to beat a $5k headphone rig with a hifi rig costing south of $20k
In a small environment (not needing much power), I suppose some Dynaudio bookshelf speakers (on sale) might allow a ‘high quality’ two channel rig that comes in well under $15k total, but would be hard for a $10k hifi rig to equal ‘great’ headfi stacks.

Hence ‘Head-fi’ being such a great hobby.
We don’t have to burden housemates and family with our (loud) music, and we get the best ROI (return on investment) for bang/buck ratio.

TL: DR Denafrips DAC scales ‘very well’ into great hifi rigs. (and great HiFi rigs easily reveal (with some recordings) why a decent ladder DAC is worth owning…

 

[neyurt]

Ares II doesn't get a good reivew on ASR. Is it because R2R usually doesn't measure well comparing to chip-based DAC?

 

[neyurt]

Nice pics of the unit. Love the way that transformer look.

 

[ku1185]

I see that Audio-gd is both an R2R DAC and headamp http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R11MK2/R11mk2EN_Specs.htm so it looks like great value compared to even the Ares.

I havent heard it so wonder if you can fill me in on in compared to the Ares that many of us know.

Did you try the Audio-gd just as a DAC output (without the headamp) to compare it with the Ares?

What did you think of the headamp out of the R2R-11 mk2? Thanks!

I got it because I was curious what NOS sounded like after trying the filter on Ares II and preferring it over the OS filters. Also thought it might be a good opportunity to downsize by getting dac/amp combo, as I was ready to move on from the Soloist 3xp (sounds great, but user experience left me wanting).

Everything on the r2r-11mk2 sounds a little more forward and "present" compared to the more laid-back presentation on the Ares II. r2r-11mk2, while "darker," sounds more neutral to my ears than the Ares II which felt like a "flavor" DAC in my mind. There's a fuller, weightier, smoother tone, and more authoritative. IMO, the dynamics stand out to me the most as it just feel more "right" to me which I can't say about my experiences with the Ares II (too soft) or BF2 (too much). However, it's lacking in detail and stage compared to Ares II . Doesn't sound blatantly bad, just feels a little vague and can start feeling a little "stuffy" at times, leaving me wanting for some more airiness or something. Ares II is far more resolving and brings more spatial sounds, like reverberations, resonances, room sounds, microdynamics, etc. Still, I find it to be very musical and perhaps better suited for casual listening at my desk. Overall, it kinda reminds me a bit of OG AKM Topping E30, but actually enjoyable and very much so .

Another negative of the r2r-11mk2 is that I find it to quickly sounding somewhat unpleasant at louder volumes (~85db+), whereas I thought the Ares II just sounded better the louder it got (at least to the point I could tolerate for a little while).

The headamp, I'm more mixed on. Vaguely reminds me of the slightly "in your face" presentation of Jot2's balanced output in that it tends to push things forward and flatten things out just a little bit. Never feels congested but does feel a little... cozy? cramped? think separation and stage depth suffers a little bit compared to Piety, El Amp II, and Soloist 3xp, but it also doesn't sound as edgy or sharp as I remember the Jot2 sounding (might just be the DAC part though). Again, dynamics shine on this amp methinks. I really like it driving the HD660s, DT770s, but would prefer another amp for the LCD-X 2021.

Ares II doesn't get a good reivew on ASR. Is it because R2R usually doesn't measure well comparing to chip-based DAC?

I think it's because you're not allowed to use ears over there. But in all seriousness, probably because it doesn't measure as well as some of the less expensive D/S DACs.

 

[neyurt]

The folks over at ASR definitely are more on the critical side of things, but it's hard to argue against using measurements to justify a product's worth.

 

[ku1185]

The folks over at ASR definitely are more on the critical side of things, but it's hard to argue against using measurements to justify a product's worth.

I prefer to evaluate gear based on my enjoyment of its use as intended. I've found (rather painfully) that measurements and my enjoyment don't always correlate.

 

[neyurt]

I prefer to evaluate gear based on my enjoyment of its use as intended. I've found measurements and my enjoyment don't always correlate. (e.g., THX 789, Topping L30/E30I

I don't disagree with this sentiment tbh. Gears that are clinical are often fatique to listen to. Warmed added by analog distortion (small amount) are often pleasant to the ears, which obviously disagree with "measurements".

 

[whitedragem]

Ares II doesn't get a good reivew on ASR. Is it because R2R usually doesn't measure well comparing to chip-based DAC?

It is a multifaceted problem where the issue is simply ‘educate the consumer’.
Amir noted going back about eight years ago, when the first example of ‘tuned for spec sheet’ equipment floated across his workbench, that ‘ASR may have created a ‘monster’.

heck camera industry made the error of heavily mentioning ‘megapixel’ when launching new models, and made it look like megapixel mattered MOST (not true at all, lens and processing are equally important, and ‘with regards to megapixel’, a 4mp fovean sensor is ~ 16mp xtrans sensor ~ 24mp CMOS sensor equivalent- naturally the market is filled with high number CMOS sensors as ‘the numbers LOOK more impressive’ and “yellow belt consumers can READ a spec sheet”..)
The camera industry soon realised they had made a beast that would take them down.. (the electronic companies started to make ‘technically capable’ (yet aesthetically useless) cameras).
many folded knowing that consumers would be ‘too hard to educate’.

That is what has happened with hifi.
We can read spec sheets, so ‘spec sheet warefare’ allows us to feel we are using our education to aid in making a purchase (helps makes us feel good in the process)
the problem is the same as Amir identified nearly a decade ago-
once manufacturers learn to tailor for the ‘tests’, they can build parts that look impressive on paper but may not be..
The best ‘easy’ example that comes to mind in a parallel field (so we don’t all get our knickers in a twist defending our recent ‘hifi’ purchases) is Samsung Solid State drives.
For years they would beat Intel drives ‘at the spec sheet level’ (tailored to perform the technical tests better), and yet in the ‘real world’ the Intel drives, that were optimised for situations users would actually find themselves in, would easily trump the ‘better spec’d’ Samsung parts.
Samsung are one of those ‘masters of spec sheet manipulation’ companies.. (they made this apart of their business model years ago)

With regards to Amirs’ recognition of ‘a manufacturer having realised his testing process’, could ‘tailor a product’ to suit. In that ‘first’ recognition of a piece of kit on his test bench that was objectively worse for targetting specs’ that didn’t necessarily make it a better product, he, and the thread that followed made quips about how their webpage may have been responsible for ‘shaping the market’.

Spin on a decade and ‘just about all amplification stages’ are feedback designs (better benchmark results) etc.. (yet may impact audio negatively)

When a manufacturer tailors for ‘audio’ reproduction, they typically give up ‘absolute’ benchmarking status.
Sadly the nature that is Ladder DACs, a lot of electronics can get in the way of ‘perfect benchmarking’, and so on the ‘spec sheet’ level of warefare, they are ‘not very good’.
The good news is that our head and hearts doesn’t actually net much from the numbers, so much as we DO GET from the reality of ‘the product as a whole’.

A denefrips Ares Enyo/12th smokes the equivalent pricepoint multibit and D/S offerings, typically.. especially when up against ‘fly by night products’ that exist for spec sheet warefare.
Sabre chips are a great example of DAC chips that were tailor made from the ground up to ‘do well with benchmarking’, and yet when we look at how difficult it was to implement the early designs and get great results from them (they were interference prone beasts that could easily be ‘tripped up’), but for all their difficulty to implement (and cost), they DID yield some great numbers. (and most buying them are not Conductors with ear training who know that not all recreated soundwaves are ‘equal’)
I have recently posted on headfi, referring to a six moons interview with a Burson engineer, who informed of why they chose the Sabre chip over a Wolfson 8741 (the other ‘most expensive’ single chip option), and they found the eight channel ESS9018 benchmarked better in channels paired mode (the typical implementation coming to market by a few hifi companies), but that even though it benchmarked worse as a two channel (non dual diff config) DAC (I am guessing this leaves parts of the chip not engaged), the actual audio quality output was ‘more musical’.

Whether a device is built from ground up to benchmark well (ie a Topping D90), or perform well (musical DACs) is a decision that the designer/engineer makes.
If you are an average hifi company (or SSD maker or camera maker)- you target spec sheet absolutes and let uninformed consumers THINK their spec sheet sales data is ‘all that’..
If you have the chops to stand on your own two feet, and let your skill and talents ‘sell’; then you can forgo spec sheet warfare and ‘let people enjoy’ a nice product.

Sadly the world has many more spec sheet researchers (as Amir noted) that will be misled by ‘better benchmarking’ and there is no short/easy answer.

Teach a man to fish?
Sure- educate the consumer..
Science has helped audio- sure… but I wouldn’t let a spec sheet determine my next hifi purchase (or generate my ‘short list’)
Every time I have upgraded my hifi to ‘lesser spec sheet’ capability (but from higher price points/‘equipment tiers’) I have netted vastly more musical results.

Having a Denafrips Ares is ‘the top of shortlist’ for ‘budget DACs’ -
it is near equal priced to a Topping D90
The Topping D90 is probably the worst (dedicated) DAC in my house.. (certainly NOT by the spec sheet, which indicates it is ‘the best’)
Fast switching vs an iFi Diablo (Diablo wins), or a Burson V2+ (easily), the D90 often doesn’t reveal anything empirically worse.. (sometimes a collapsed soundstage depth makes a recording sound ‘funny’ vs EVERY OTHER DAC I have ever heard)..
but on great recordings…

hmmm

Amusingly- I am running my (Denafrips owning’) mates old DAC, an Audio-Gd nfb 3.1 (possibly AudioGds WORST EVER DAC) (I put internal photos up a couple of days ago here on headfi; https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/audio-gd-nfb-2-and-nfb-3.13105/reviews )

interestingly the NFB in the DAC parts product name (NFB 3.1) stands for ‘non feedback’ design- it has many rails of class A and outputs ‘proper’ audio… (dynamically so, and ‘very revealing’)(with actual soundstage depth too)…

Would I choose a ten year old DAC using outdated topology over a ‘flavour of the moment’ piece of ‘fad-fi’?

Yes.
Absolutely.
IIS, and balanced and … all these things that become ‘flavour of the moment’ to push us ‘ever forwards’ (generally finding synergy with other equally designed/ similarly built parts) do not help anyone except ‘second hand market’ dwellers who can score high quality parts for peanuts.

I’d judge equipment, against my scientific mind, by pricepoint and weight, and then brand, and then listening output/spec sheet..
giving least weight in my comparison to ‘spec sheet’ (and more weighing to ‘weight’).

Re: a Denafrips benchmarking poorly- that is the nature of the beast for components in a R2R design.
is it an issue.. Not at all. (nor is it something you’d be able to notice)

edited to add a hyperlink to ‘photos’

 

[Lolito2]

Does the Ares II sound significantly better in a speaker system than it does in a headphone system?

no

 

[szore]

The folks over at ASR definitely are more on the critical side of things, but it's hard to argue against using measurements to justify a product's worth.

o nonsense. measurements mean dik.

 

[Lolito2]

The folks over at ASR definitely are more on the critical side of things, but it's hard to argue against using measurements to justify a product's worth.

they are a secta, like flatlanders but using science, that's the funny part

 

[sajunky]

I got it because I was curious what NOS sounded like after trying the filter on Ares II and preferring it over the OS filters. Also thought it might be a good opportunity to downsize by getting dac/amp combo, as I was ready to move on from the Soloist 3xp (sounds great, but user experience left me wanting).

Everything on the r2r-11mk2 sounds a little more forward and "present" compared to the more laid-back presentation on the Ares II. r2r-11mk2, while "darker," sounds more neutral to my ears than the Ares II which felt like a "flavor" DAC in my mind. There's a fuller, weightier, smoother tone, and more authoritative. IMO, the dynamics stand out to me the most as it just feel more "right" to me which I can't say about my experiences with the Ares II (too soft) or BF2 (too much). However, it's lacking in detail and stage compared to Ares II . Doesn't sound blatantly bad, just feels a little vague and can start feeling a little "stuffy" at times, leaving me wanting for some more airiness or something. Ares II is far more resolving and brings more spatial sounds, like reverberations, resonances, room sounds, microdynamics, etc. Still, I find it to be very musical and perhaps better suited for casual listening at my desk. Overall, it kinda reminds me a bit of OG AKM Topping E30, but actually enjoyable and very much so .

Another negative of the r2r-11mk2 is that I find it to quickly sounding somewhat unpleasant at louder volumes (~85db+), whereas I thought the Ares II just sounded better the louder it got (at least to the point I could tolerate for a little while).

The headamp, I'm more mixed on. Vaguely reminds me of the slightly "in your face" presentation of Jot2's balanced output in that it tends to push things forward and flatten things out just a little bit. Never feels congested but does feel a little... cozy? cramped? think separation and stage depth suffers a little bit compared to Piety, El Amp II, and Soloist 3xp, but it also doesn't sound as edgy or sharp as I remember the Jot2 sounding (might just be the DAC part though). Again, dynamics shine on this amp methinks. I really like it driving the HD660s, DT770s, but would prefer another amp for the LCD-X 2021.



I think it's because you're not allowed to use ears over there. But in all seriousness, probably because it doesn't measure as well as some of the less expensive D/S DACs.

Great comparison, perhaps the best so far. Almost every word is matching my experience. A difference is probably related to jitter on the USB connection, yes, jitter. On this model galvanic isolation brings some jitter, only higher models have fully asynchronous clock passing across the isolator, this one doesn't. If you have purchased option with galvanic isolator, I bet it is the case

Ares II was my pick, before I got a deal for
early model R2R-11. Ares was more resolving, but it was not a big difference. Reverbations as a part of room acoustic (in this sense) are close related. When talking about reverbations on a decay of individual instruments like gong or piano (there are very strong, more represent macrodynamics), it was better rendered on R2R-11. Ares 12th should fix this issue, I am convinced it is pure NOS, despite of the theories about 'simulated' ZOH presented in other threads. I never heard of such term, while regularly reading scientific literature in the past, it was a part of my profession. So I warn you to not believe what a homegrown scientist spreads around.

I am not audiophile type, while is is nice to have a good recording, I focus on the performance. My comments can be wrongly pronounced, but I have to say what is important. While Ares sound had virtually no digital glare, was not fatiguing, its smoothness was little unnatural. In a live performance sound is much more violent. R2R-11 had a trully high end sound when listening to acoustic trios. A sound signature is exactly the same as in higher Audio GD range, but something happens on a complex sound... a magic almost disappears. In other words R2R-11 user is getting a taste and a desire to spend more money on the upper product, it is addictive, my second warning.

I managed to rise complex music trigger level by upgrading DIY Amanero module with Crystek ultra low noise oscilators. This, I can estimate, should bring resolving to the Ares level.

There is a dilemma whether the option with galvanic isolation is the best. Judging from this post, it is better to order a standard version and go my way. With an option, R2R-11Mk2 will perform predictable, but average. Without isolator it can sound very good or bad, so care has to be taken on redirecting USB noise.

I made an experiment adding Crystek ultra low jitter oscilators on the Douk Audio U2Pro and feeding R2R-11 with coax. A low noise S/PDIF source brings the same level of performance as my upgraded USB module with an added bonus, there is more resistance to ground loops. If you have option with isolator, S/PDIF source is a way to get peak performance out of the r2r-11mk2.

Have a joyful Christmas
(or Holidays, depends)

 

[PopZeus]

The folks over at ASR definitely are more on the critical side of things, but it's hard to argue against using measurements to justify a product's worth.

Sure, some high end gear might measure better than the entry-level stuff, but I’ve found it quite easy to enjoy and value poorly measuring gear over stuff that measures well but sounds lifeless or flat. So it doesn’t really work the way you say it does, at least to me and a lot of others who actively dislike what ASR does for the community.