DENAFRIPS 'ARES' R2R discrete ladder DAC - close up view

Mar 28, 2022 at 3:55 AM Post #3,181 of 4,108
It doesn't matter (#3), sound is degraded when two connections are made.

Why though? What could degrade the output is a low or non-linear input impedance, but does that actually occur? Doesn’t seem like it to me:

When the input impedance of the amplifiers is high enough, as it should be, they do not really impose a load — the DAC just supplies voltage and the amp draws virtually no current.

Now say that two amplifiers are connected with equal input impedance. The impedance as seen by the DAC is now halved. But again, given a high enough impedance, half that still isn’t significant, and will still not impose a load on the DAC.

Exception could be when you connect one with RCA (only on ve+) and the other using XLR. Ve+ and ve- are now not in balance and that may cause some degradation, hence my question.
 
Mar 28, 2022 at 4:15 AM Post #3,182 of 4,108
I don't get it. Please explain.

Cheers
Whoops, was meant to say "Definitely ideal to keep the stock firmware at least as a no volume version." not sure what happened there
 
Apr 6, 2022 at 8:17 PM Post #3,184 of 4,108
Definitely ideal to keep the stock firmware at least as a no volume version.
Linux has a bit of a quirk on many sources where it will set ALSA devices to 46% (can't remember the exact number but it's around there) by default.

This caused a bit of confusion with the new Holo May USB card for example as it had USB vol control enabled by default, so on most linux sources/streamers it'd be way quieter than the other inputs and depending on how you were streaming it could be a bit tricky to adjust it up. Easy if you're using roon, not so much if using something else.

They've switched to a fixed vol stock firmware now but have a second firmware available if someone wants the USB vol control

Thanks for the suggestion! @GoldenOne

We will have rolled out an Special Firmware of which enable the USB volume control.

Please note that the volume control applies only when you use the USB input. With the firmware v3.14, you can use the Windows/ Mac computers volume slider to control the volume.

Reason for the clarification is that some users misunderstood that they will be able to attenuate the master output volume of the DAC for all digital inputs, it's not the case...
If you already have a headamp/preamp/integrated amplifier, I would highly recommend using the amplifier for volume attenuation.

Read more: link here
 
Apr 6, 2022 at 8:47 PM Post #3,185 of 4,108
Thanks for the suggestion! @GoldenOne

We will have rolled out an Special Firmware of which enable the USB volume control.

Please note that the volume control applies only when you use the USB input. With the firmware v3.14, you can use the Windows/ Mac computers volume slider to control the volume.

Reason for the clarification is that some users misunderstood that they will be able to attenuate the master output volume of the DAC for all digital inputs, it's not the case...
If you already have a headamp/preamp/integrated amplifier, I would highly recommend using the amplifier for volume attenuation.

Read more: link here
Does this firmware update anything else or is it the volume control only?
 
Apr 19, 2022 at 6:12 PM Post #3,186 of 4,108
Anyone heard the cayin ru6 and can speak to how it sounds vs the ares?

Also compared to. soekris 1101 or 1321?
 
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Apr 20, 2022 at 5:57 AM Post #3,187 of 4,108
Anyone heard the cayin ru6 and can speak to how it sounds vs the ares?

Also compared to. soekris 1101 or 1321?
SQ is reported good, only power consumption would prevent me from purchasing it. I own a Nobsound 8xTDA1387, which is also a ladder type, it takes very low power, less than a typical DS dongle.

In this link there is no comparison to desktop R2R devices, but @gLer is familar with R2R desktop DACs and is there on this forum, you can ask questions.
 
Apr 20, 2022 at 10:22 AM Post #3,188 of 4,108
Anyone heard the cayin ru6 and can speak to how it sounds vs the ares?
I own both. Ares II was my first taste of R2R. When I heard that Cayin was releasing the RU6 dongle DAC, I jumped on the pre-order and got one through Musicteck before any reviews or impressions were available. It's currently my favourite dongle, next to the Luxury & Precision W2. I'd however be hesitant to go into sound comparisons between a desktop DAC (hooked up to my main system) and dongle DAC used mainly with IEM's, but if you like the Ares, you'd likely enjoy the RU6 too for what it is.
 
Apr 20, 2022 at 4:13 PM Post #3,189 of 4,108
Hello folks, getting out of the hobby, selling my 2 month old Ares 2. Asking $600. Mint condition, classified will be up tonight.
 
Apr 20, 2022 at 4:59 PM Post #3,190 of 4,108
I have a
Anyone heard the cayin ru6 and can speak to how it sounds vs the ares?

Also compared to. soekris 1101 or 1321?
I have a Soekris dam1121. Compared to the stock Soekris filters, the Ares II is more engaging, dynamic, and warm. With custom filters you can get the warmth up on the Soekris, but not the detail. The Ares definitely has more of that detail.

I do think this is a matter of diminishing returns. I have been very happy with my Soekris, and Ares feels as a step up to me, but don’t expect it to be light years ahead.
 
Apr 20, 2022 at 6:07 PM Post #3,191 of 4,108
I own both. Ares II was my first taste of R2R. When I heard that Cayin was releasing the RU6 dongle DAC, I jumped on the pre-order and got one through Musicteck before any reviews or impressions were available. It's currently my favourite dongle, next to the Luxury & Precision W2. I'd however be hesitant to go into sound comparisons between a desktop DAC (hooked up to my main system) and dongle DAC used mainly with IEM's, but if you like the Ares, you'd likely enjoy the RU6 too for what it is.

Ive got both the w2 131 and the ru6, after bearing the ru6 it got me thinking how much better can it get?

I already have tubes in my speaker and headphone amps so maybe the returns will be a little less than if i had a solid state setup. At least as far as the warmth goes

What causes you to hesitate between dongle and desktop? After all both produce music just a little different right?
 
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Apr 21, 2022 at 4:47 AM Post #3,192 of 4,108
Ive got both the w2 131 and the ru6, after bearing the ru6 it got me thinking how much better can it get?

I already have tubes in my speaker and headphone amps so maybe the returns will be a little less than if i had a solid state setup. At least as far as the warmth goes

What causes you to hesitate between dongle and desktop? After all both produce music just a little different right?
Ah, so it's the other way around. I was under the impression you already had an Ares and were looking to get the RU6.

The only tubes I currently own is a hybrid Little Dot MK1+ headphone amp and it pairs surprisingly well with the Ares. What was initially just a curiosity of hey, I've got this little HP amp in a cupboard, let's hook it up to the Ares and hear what it sounds like, turned into more than just a seasonal (winter months) ritual.

Ares II + LD MK1 + Grado's = Pure musical bliss. To my ears at least. I don't get that same level of enjoyment out of listening via the RU6, but it's still really good for what it is.

Amp, speakers, room treatment can give a completely different sound experience and feel really, than the more intimate listen with headphones/buds/IEM's. It's all good though, depends on the mood. :gs1000smile:
 
Apr 22, 2022 at 4:03 AM Post #3,193 of 4,108
Apr 22, 2022 at 5:33 AM Post #3,194 of 4,108
The claims GoldenSound is making about the Ares II not being able to do true NOS (in NOS mode), and that a triangle-shaped step response is proof of false NOS is non-nonsensical.



For example, look at : https://www.kitsunehifi.com/nosvsos/
Also look at JA's metrics: Look at NOS curves for Holo May: https://www.stereophile.com/content/holoaudio-may-level-3-da-processor-measurements

The triangle shaped IR is proof because it is not something that can be implemented in the analog domain and could not possibly result from NOS operation.
A NOS impulse can either be a straight NOS/Zero-Order-Hold impulse (which will show effectively a square wave of 1 sample width), or if there is an analog low-pass filter such as in the Holo or Metrum DACs then the rectangle will appear rounded because of the frequencies above 80khz (or whatever the LPF is configured for) are attenuated.

Linear interpolation requires digital domain processing as it requires advance knowledge of the value of the next sample.

Additionally, looking at the IR at a higher sample rate you can see the individual steps caused by the true sampling rate of the DAC. (These would not be present if it were either NOS or an analog domain implementation)
1650619675434.png


There is also the mathematical demonstration of rolloff. The rolloff @ nyquist is predictable and the Ares 2 follows the expected level for linear interpolation, and rolls off more than a NOS dac would.

This is not to say this is a 'bad' thing.
Filter design IMO is a preference thing and whilst some are overall more appropriate or questionable than others at the end of the day if you like the resulting sound of any particular reconstruction approach that's great.
The issue is that calling this 'NOS' is not accurate.


A bit of further info copied from my Terminator Plus written post:

Looking at NOS first; NOS means non-oversampling. The DAC does not do any interpolation or filtering in the digital domain, and as a result, the DAC will simply hold the output level, and when a new sample arrives, it moves the output level up/down to meet that new sample, then holds there until the next sample, repeat.
This means that for an impulse response, where there is silence, then one sample, then silence, it will look like a square.

image-20.png


Sample 1: still 0/silence. Dac continues holding at 0 output
Sample 2: Higher level, DAC moves output level up to meet it, then holds
Sample 3: 0 Again, DAC immediately moves down to meet it, then holds
Sample 4: Still silence, DAC will continue holding.
Here is a real world example of that from the Phasure NOS1 DAC:

1625233476653.png

But here is the Terminator Plus Impulse:

1625233785647.png

Not very square! So what’s going on? Well, it is because the DAC is linearly interpolating, adding samples in a straight line from one sample to the next. It IS oversampling.

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Terminator Plus impulse (Green)
NOS impulse (Blue)
After sample 1, the T+ moves in a straight line toward sample 2, knowing where it is in advance. It does not hold, and instead immediately begins linearly interpolating once again back toward sample three.

Why is this a concern? Well firstly, Linear interpolation has more treble rolloff than actual NOS, and so as we saw on the Ares 2, the ‘NOS’ mode has about 3dB higher rolloff than a true NOS DAC does.

1625234079036.png


Linear Interpolation gives a squared sinc frequency response
PI/2 ( so 22.05k @ 44.1k sample rate ) SIN(PI/2) / (PI/2) gives us -3.9dB droop for a NOS
PI/2 ( so 22.05k @ 44.1k sample rate ) (SIN(PI/2) / (PI/2))^2 gives us -7.84dB droop for a for a linear interpolate


Additionally, where NOS will have the directly vertical activity at exactly 44.1khz (or whatever the sample rate is), linear interpolation creates random added distortion as the angle of signal from sample to sample changes constantly. This is more akin to IMD and likely more audible.

1625233960520.png


15khz sine wave, denafrips ‘NOS’
So no, unfortunately the Terminator plus ‘NOS’ is just linear interpolation oversampling, not actual NOS.

What about that ‘oversampling to 1.536mhz’?
Well, this we can check as well.

Firstly, when looking at the wideband spectrum, we can see a big spike at 352.8khz, which moves to 384khz when we give the dac 48khz source rate files.

image-21.png

We can therefore rule out 1.536mhz OS right away because the spur at 352.8khz would not be visible because 1.536mhz sample rate gives a bandwidth of 768khz.

We can see similar behaviour on the Schiit Yggdrasil, which upsamples to 192khz, and so we see a spur at 192khz and multiples upwards.

image-38.png


Schiit Yggdrasil ‘MIL’ wideband view of 1khz tone.
Secondly, we can utilise the 2.5mhz sample rate of the APx555 to look a bit deeper at what’s happening.
Looking at both the ‘NOS’ and OS impulse responses, we can see a stepping behaviour, indicating the true speed the ladders are operating at.

HAAbmBT8gW.png


OS Sharp

R6EOy4Ktok.png


'NOS’
Between each sample there are eight ‘steps’, indicating again an OS rate of 8x or 384khz/352.8khz.

So it would seem that no, the T+ does NOT upsample to 1.536mhz, and also cannot run NOS.
I do not know why these seemingly false claims about the product are made, especially when it objectively performs very well for an R2R dac, and subjectively sounds very good. There does not seem to be much reason to lie, but whatever the reason, false marketing should always be called out even if the product is otherwise very very good (which the T+ is, it sounds great).
 
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Apr 22, 2022 at 12:33 PM Post #3,195 of 4,108
A NOS impulse can either be a straight NOS/Zero-Order-Hold impulse (which will show effectively a square wave of 1 sample width), or if there is an analog low-pass filter such as in the Holo or Metrum DACs then the rectangle will appear rounded because of the frequencies above 80khz (or whatever the LPF is configured for) are attenuated.
You have presented this opinion in the other thread which I opposed, as the beginning phase of charging capacitor is a straight line. Further tests prove your point, also the other argumentation is correct.

Is Holo Audio response rounded? - Not true. In JA tests it was showing a small ringing that disappeared when testing with 2.5GHz ADC sampling rate of the analyzer. I was initially blaimining digital filtering, but your further test revealed a true reason for such ringing. It is because there is a random ultrasonic scrambling noise added to the music before conversion. Energy of a scrambling noise that is close to the Nyquist frequency cause ringing. This is a truth you have proven yourself, still not admitting...

Digital filtering in Holo Audio in addition to scrambling is still there, JA was pointing to the rolloff figures, giving numbers what is expected from NOS and what is found there.

For the above reason Holo Audio DAC is also (like Denafrips) not NOS, for a different reason.
 
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