[433115]

I've been on head-fi for a while, making thread after thread about headphones, not knowing what to buy, worried about buying one and then not being able to return it if I'm not so hot on it.
 
I think it's time to put an end to it all. I'm hoping
 
In order to make this list, I've decided on putting down a strict price range. There's no way I'd be able to break a $400 limit. Anything above that is out of the question.
 

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Preferences and Intended Use
 
Okay, so what do I need a headphone for?
 
General use and studio use both. To be exact, I want to listen to music, play games, watch video, and work on my sound projects with it. I'm unfortunately not blessed with a budget to be able to get individual headphones geared to each of these. I need an all-rounder.
 
What I care about - Resolution, Clarity, Detail, Soundstage, Balance, Neutral, Natural, Analytical.
 
Past Headphone: SRH440, I haven't ever been too upset with them, but maybe I just don't know any better. People tend to describe them on the bright side I think, but I think my natural hearing preference is brighter than most, seeing as the bass-obsession of today's youth is just absurd to me.
 
What I listen to? Pretty wide range of stuff there. Rock, Metal, Alternative, Jazz, Classical, EDM, Electronica, Techo, Indi.
 
 
What will be used to drive it? Well, while I would prefer headphones that will work without complaining regardless, I'm home most of the time. I plan on buying a Schiit Fulla AMP/DAC to drive whatever headphone I end up getting. If the headphone I get turns out to be a high-impedance like the HD600, then I guess I'll just use the Monoprice headphones I've bought when I'm away from home or walking around or whatever. Truth be told if I'm listening to anything it's probably at home.
 
What I want ultimately in sound? Competence. A headphone that does what it's told as the composer intended and doesn't adulterate it. Furthermore I've been working on making my own music and I can't have headphones that make it sound different than what other people will hear. And I don't mind "harsh" headphones. If what I'm listening to has errors or distortion in it, then it has errors or distortion in it, period. This helps me to address the problem, which isn't the headphone, it's the audio source. A good headphone presents the sound as it is, and if it's crap, then it's crap. That's not the headphone's fault. I want something that'll play the high highs as well as the lower lows and without a bias to them unless the song itself is biased.
 
Source Audio: It's probably not really relevant, but most of what I listen to is FLAC, AAC, or if it's MP3 it'll be a bitrate of 320 or higher. This, of course, doesn't apply to online videos and gaming and what not.
 
Comfort: I have detached ears, probably larger than the average person's. One thing that really persuaded me away from the Oppo PM-3 when I was almost set on it was the size warnings I was seeing from others, and some even going as far as to call them "on-ear". Then I looked at the images of the PM-3, and then looked at these Monoprice headphones I have. They look a lot alike, and my ears don't fully fit in these MP ones and would hurt after a long time. So that's a big reason I've decided to move away from the PM-3 and consider others. I suppose Oppo isn't from a Western country, and the vast majority of Asians have smaller, attached ears. This makes sense if they're operating from there.
 
Return Policy: I'd feel much more confident about my purchase if there's a way to return them if I want to. The thought of being stuck with what I've gotten is one that keeps me off of buying.
 

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 The Candidates
 
Here we have the candidates that I've been able to put together. I added a couple, the title would be too long if I shoved them all in there. If you have any additions to it then just speak up - just don't break the $400 limit and make sure they're full-size headphones, I don't like any of that on-ear crap.
 

1. Philips Fidelio X2
2. Sennhesier HD600
3. AKG K702
4. Audio Technica ATH-R70x
5. HiFiMAN HE400S
6. Oppo PM-3
7. Bang & Olufsen H6
8. Sennheiser Momentum 2

 
These all seem to be high-regard headphones in this price range by what I can tell.
 
I'm especially interested to hear about the R70x as it is so new and not really talked about yet, with few reviews seeming to exist, but the few there are regard it as exemplary. If you're confused as to why they're on the list even though they're listed for $489 on their site, it's because Amazon is carrying them for $349. For whatever reason other vendors seem to always sell Audio Technica products for far lower than the MSRP on the AT website. It is very high impedance though, at 360Ω.
 

---

 
Closing Remarks
 
I'm hoping this is the last thread I have to make regarding all of this. I need to hurry up and buy something.
 
Thanks to Head-Fi for enduring all the posts I make. It's been quite a merry-go-round. Sorry for posting in this category, but it's so much better here than in the actual recommendations threads where it appears less users bother to go into, especially the experienced ones.
 
Sorry if my wording seems a bit harsh or strict, but I find that when you're really looking to be decisive you have to cast-aside "fuzziness" and start dealing with confidence, in absolutes, and by strict definitions.
 
I hope this kind of thread will help other buyers by addressing this and looking for an all-purpose headphone, assuming experienced users will reply. I'm sure I'm not the only person that can't buy several headphones.
 
- Alex

 

[Dobrescu George]

Ultrasone dj one pro, or ultrasone pro 900 in this price range.

 

[obobskivich]

Post broken-up with my thoughts/replies interjected where pertinent. I'll qualify that I haven't heard absolutely everything on your list, but I've heard a lot of cans over the years - don't be surprised when I suggest things not on your list, and this isn't done to "further confuse" the issue or anything of that sort. I'm not going to recommend something I haven't owned.

Past Headphone: SRH440, I haven't ever been too upset with them, but maybe I just don't know any better. People tend to describe them on the bright side I think, but I think my natural hearing preference is brighter than most, seeing as the bass-obsession of today's youth is just absurd to me.

What I listen to? Pretty wide range of stuff there. Rock, Metal, Alternative, Jazz, Classical, EDM, Electronica, Techo, Indi.

I don't know the SRH-440, but I can absolutely relate to "brighter than most" and not wanting muddy bass blasters.

What will be used to drive it? Well, while I would prefer headphones that will work without complaining regardless, I'm home most of the time. I plan on buying a Schiit Fulla AMP/DAC to drive whatever headphone I end up getting. If the headphone I get turns out to be a high-impedance like the HD600, then I guess I'll just use the Monoprice headphones I've bought when I'm away from home or walking around or whatever. Truth be told if I'm listening to anything it's probably at home.

Most of the cans you've mentioned are open-back; I wouldn't suggest them for mobile use as a result (I actually don't like full-size cans for mobile use at all, but esp not open cans as they offer no isolation or containment).

What I want ultimately in sound? Competence. A headphone that does what it's told as the composer intended and doesn't adulterate it. Furthermore I've been working on making my own music and I can't have headphones that make it sound different than what other people will hear. And I don't mind "harsh" headphones. If what I'm listening to has errors or distortion in it, then it has errors or distortion in it, period. This helps me to address the problem, which isn't the headphone, it's the audio source. A good headphone presents the sound as it is, and if it's crap, then it's crap. That's not the headphone's fault. I want something that'll play the high highs as well as the lower lows and without a bias to them unless the song itself is biased.

Simply and bluntly, what you want does not exist at any price point. You will never get "absolutely as the composer intended" (and I *despise* Beats for injecting that into the collective consciousness and discussion of audio); absolutely every headphone (or speaker) on the market will have coloration of some sort, and nothing will give you flawless linear response (as in, ruler flat across a very wide range, as you may expect from a DAC or amplifier). The biggest things you will ultimately have to compromise on are frequency response and output radiation - nothing will have an absolutely flat frequency response (there isn't even a commonly agreed upon definition of "flat frequency response" for headphones), and radiation patterns vary wildly from design to design. The result here is that what sounds good to you on your cans may or may not translate to another set of cans, and it's an even bigger question as to whether or not it will transfer to speakers. This isn't meant to be a total downer, just a dose of reality. Furthermore, even if such a pair of cans or speakers DID exist, that doesn't mean everyone owns them or uses them.

What I take away from this, however, is you want something that's relatively revealing, relatively balanced, relatively natural wrt timbre, and so forth, and some of the items on your list get fairly close to that.

Source Audio: It's probably not really relevant, but most of what I listen to is FLAC, AAC, or if it's MP3 it'll be a bitrate of 320 or higher. This, of course, doesn't apply to online videos and gaming and what not.

It's very relevant. Apart from the cans themselves, the quality of what you're feeding them is very much a big factor in overall sound quality. I will say that for gaming audio, IME, the point of diminishing returns is quite low. To that point, I've honestly yet to come across a pair of hi-fi cans that aren't excellent for gaming, but can be highly variable for music and other uses. The only things I'd qualify for gaming are a decent soundstage and decent imaging, but really it doesn't have to be anything extraordinary to sound good IMO, even for competitive gameplay.

Return Policy: I'd feel much more confident about my purchase if there's a way to return them if I want to. The thought of being stuck with what I've gotten is one that keeps me off of buying.

Can you use Amazon?

[rule] The Candidates

Here we have the candidates that I've been able to put together. I added a couple, the title would be too long if I shoved them all in there. If you have any additions to it then just speak up - just don't break the $400 limit and make sure they're full-size headphones, I don't like any of that on-ear crap.

• Philips Fidelio X2
• Sennhesier HD600
• AKG K702
• Audio Technica ATH-R70x
• HiFiMAN HE400S
• Oppo PM-3
• Bang & Olufsen H6
• Sennheiser Momentum 2

The HD 600 are an easy suggestion based on everything you've mentioned above. They lean towards a warmer or more laid-back presentation, have good imaging, a decent size soundstage, are supremely comfortable, and so forth. The AKG *7-- are also a good candidate - they are cooler, have a larger soundstage, brighter presentation, somewhat faster, less bass, and require more power to drive (neither will be an issue with a headphone amp of decent competence).

I would also add the Ultrasone PRO2900 - they are faster than either of the above, brutally revealing, more easily driven, come with a larger/better accessory package, and can provide (when called upon) more bass than either of the above. I would steer away from their closed counterpart, the PRO900, as they're quite bass-heavy and have less natural sounding highs. The less expensive HFI-2400 would also be worth considering - I'd consider them on-par with the *7-- or HD 600 in terms of fidelity, and somewhat slower than the 2900. Still a very good headphone. I haven't heard the HiFiMan or Oppo, don't honestly remember if I've heard the B&O, and have heard (and did not like in the least) the original Momentum. I would also throw the Sennheiser HD 5** series in (e.g. HD 598 (which admittedly I haven't heard; I've heard 558 and 595)) as they have (IME) a more balanced sound (they are brighter) than the HD 600. They cost less too.

You might also look at closed headphones, like the Audio-Technica A900X, which provide a fairly balanced sound and some modicum of isolation.

I'm especially interested to hear about the R70x as it is so new and not really talked about yet, with few reviews seeming to exist, but the few there are regard it as exemplary. If you're confused as to why they're on the list even though they're listed for $489 on their site, it's because Amazon is carrying them for $349. For whatever reason other vendors seem to always sell Audio Technica products for far lower than the MSRP on the AT website. It is very high impedance though, at 360[COLOR=545454]Ω.[/COLOR]

I haven't heard the R70X, but I like most ATs that I've heard (and I own a few). They do indeed look interesting though. As far as their impedance, AT specifies them (Both on their Japanese main site and the ATUS site) at 470 ohms (http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/headphones/f39784ce643a82e6/index.html), however their sensitivity is quite high, so a decent headphone amp still shouldn't have a problem with them, as long as it can handle the higher Z (just check that it has suitable rated output power for 300-600R, which most desktop units should).

What I'd be very curious about wrt R70x (and I honestly don't know the answer) is how do they relate to the AD1000X (which are cheaper), or the AD2000X (the flagship open-back).

WRT their pricing, my understanding is that AT doesn't enforce a MAP, so that's why the prices move around more than say, Sennheiser, that recently has begun to more strictly enforce a MAP.

EDIT: My comments above about the Ultrasone PRO900 are not in direct response to Dobrescu George's post; that was posted while I was still writing this.

 

[433115]

I see... so there's just no such thing as that. I figured "jumping when told to jump" is what flat frequency response did or something. I hate Beats, they're all marketing and their headphones are just "let's throw muddy bass into everything, because bass is all that matters amirite"? They're just downright crap to me. Someone tried by Shures and said "there's not enough bass here... these are crap" and then put on his Beats. I just... AGH.... I want to beat you senseless! GRR.
 
Most things I listen to tend to have more mids and highs, but I want it to boom when necessary. If I see an explosion in something I'm watching, I'm wanting to hear the sub-bass booms of it.
 
I hadn't really considered Ultrasone headphones but I'll take a look. I wonder if that's more up my alley. I was REALLY considering the X2 for a while there since Tyll said it's like a better version of the HD600.
 
You didn't say anything about the Ultrasone's soundstage and imaging or anything of that sort. I figure that is the main reason for me to consider an open headphone over a closed one so I wonder what your take is.
 
And you're right, I got the impedance wrong on the ATH-R70x, I must've changed it in my head as I was typing. Still, very high impedance, those won't be usable from anything aside from a proper amp.
 
 
I think to most people I tend to be a bright headphone preferance, but not a.. cold or tinny bright I guess. I guess I like a warm-bright headphone or something. One that's between warm-bright and neutral bright and analytical. When someone says "cold" it makes me think the headphone will sound metallic or something, if that makes sense. I associate the word "warm" with fuzziness and "cold" with metal and ice. Warm to me suggests more bass and cold to me suggest tinnier or focusing on highs. That's why I was looking for something in the middle.
 
How does Amazon handle returns? I thought they were supposed to be very iffy and depending on what store you buy from on there or something. You see I'm quite inexperienced with buying things and such actually.
 
I'm almost at a point where I wanna buy one based on how they look because I've dwelled on it too long and I know they're all good headphones supposedly xD
 
Before I had restricted myself to Tyll's wall of fame, but I suppose the fact of the matter is there's no way he's tried all the headphones and perhaps there's many he's just not tried and therefore it's not on his wall.

 

[obobskivich]

Sorry about not mentioning the soundstage - IMO S-LOGIC does fantastically and I'd put the 2900s up against any of the other "big soundstage" champs (e.g. K701, MDR-F1, MDR-SA5000, ATH-W5000, etc) I've heard without hesitation. This carries over well to the 2400 and 900 as well, but imo the 2900 are the best sounding (most balanced and detailed - the 2400 are warmer, somewhat slower, and somewhat dark by comparison, and the 900 are bassier and somewhat brighter/more abrasive up-top while retaining roughly the same detail level).

Wrt "cold" - its kind of an odd thing. Not many modern headphones really target it either. It does not have to mean metallic, thin, or tinny though. The 2900 actually lean cooler, and still have very solid low-end response and aren't metallic sounding imho. There are, however, some cold headphones that *are* metallic and thin, but that isn't a general rule - it's like there are some warm headphones that are bright, and some that are not bright. I'm not sure why cold is unpopular (in terms of few headphones being made that are cold), but it can sound quite good (the 2900 being a stellar example).

Wrt to Beats - let's not go there; suffice to say everything mentioned thus far (at least that I've heard) I would put well above Beats.

Wrt Amazon returns - returns to Amazon are painless; no iffy-ness. Returns to FBA are the same. Third parties can be variable, but are still covered under A-to-Z. I'd say read up on their return policies for more specifics if you're concerned, but generally it shouldn't be a problem. I'd go Amazon or FBA when possible, especially if you have Prime, as the shipping is generally faster and you're dealing 100% with Amazon for post-sales.

A final comment - you've said "warm bright" about a dozen times, and probably know where I'm gonna go as a result: have you considered Grado? They pretty much epitomize "warm and bright" and have, IMO, very natural timbre.

EDIT

Have a full-size keyboard now. Here's Amazon's return policy link:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=901888

It's really quite straight-forward - you just select return on the item, give them a reason (e.g. you don't want it, it came damaged, etc) and then print the label. If it's just "I don't want this item" they usually charge return shipping; if it came damaged they usually pay return shipping. I forget when "Christmas ordering" begins, but that will extend the return time-frame to like 60 or 90 days (vs normal 30), so if you're really on the fence you might wait until that begins and then you have more time with the cans under a return window.

 

[Redcarmoose]

No need to tire, or fight, you have.


All things will be, as they will be.



This quest can not be won with a single thread or $400 purchase, silly you are to think.

 

[433115]

Sorry about not mentioning the soundstage - IMO S-LOGIC does fantastically and I'd put the 2900s up against any of the other "big soundstage" champs (e.g. K701, MDR-F1, MDR-SA5000, ATH-W5000, etc) I've heard without hesitation. This carries over well to the 2400 and 900 as well, but imo the 2900 are the best sounding (most balanced and detailed - the 2400 are warmer, somewhat slower, and somewhat dark by comparison, and the 900 are bassier and somewhat brighter/more abrasive up-top while retaining roughly the same detail level).

Wrt "cold" - its kind of an odd thing. Not many modern headphones really target it either. It does not have to mean metallic, thin, or tinny though. The 2900 actually lean cooler, and still have very solid low-end response and aren't metallic sounding imho. There are, however, some cold headphones that *are* metallic and thin, but that isn't a general rule - it's like there are some warm headphones that are bright, and some that are not bright. I'm not sure why cold is unpopular (in terms of few headphones being made that are cold), but it can sound quite good (the 2900 being a stellar example).

Wrt to Beats - let's not go there; suffice to say everything mentioned thus far (at least that I've heard) I would put well above Beats.

Wrt Amazon returns - returns to Amazon are painless; no iffy-ness. Returns to FBA are the same. Third parties can be variable, but are still covered under A-to-Z. I'd say read up on their return policies for more specifics if you're concerned, but generally it shouldn't be a problem. I'd go Amazon or FBA when possible, especially if you have Prime, as the shipping is generally faster and you're dealing 100% with Amazon for post-sales.

A final comment - you've said "warm bright" about a dozen times, and probably know where I'm gonna go as a result: have you considered Grado? They pretty much epitomize "warm and bright" and have, IMO, very natural timbre.

EDIT

Have a full-size keyboard now. Here's Amazon's return policy link:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=901888

It's really quite straight-forward - you just select return on the item, give them a reason (e.g. you don't want it, it came damaged, etc) and then print the label. If it's just "I don't want this item" they usually charge return shipping; if it came damaged they usually pay return shipping. I forget when "Christmas ordering" begins, but that will extend the return time-frame to like 60 or 90 days (vs normal 30), so if you're really on the fence you might wait until that begins and then you have more time with the cans under a return window.

 
Eh, I guess I'm not crazy about it. Really, just neutral fast and clear is good for me. Defining. I dunno... probably any of them will work for me. I guess I'll take that Ultrasone into consideration. How do you think it does against the K702 and the X2? I suppose opinion on the ATH-R70x will be hard to find right now.
 

No need to tire, or fight, you have.


All things will be, as they will be.



This quest can not be won with a single thread or $400 purchase, silly you are to think.

 
U wot m8? Shut it Yoda, war is awesome and you're a green midget with a hairy scrotum for a head. Fite me irl. My daddy is a Navy Seal and I'll drop u swear on me mum.

 

[obobskivich]

Eh, I guess I'm not crazy about it. Really, just neutral fast and clear is good for me. Defining. I dunno... probably any of them will work for me. I guess I'll take that Ultrasone into consideration. How do you think it does against the K702 and the X2? I suppose opinion on the ATH-R70x will be hard to find right now.

Again can't comment on the R70x or the Philips (don't own either of them, but reading about the R70x has me admittedly curious).

FWIW: I think the 2900 is a significant improvement over the K701 (I haven't heard all 31,005 different revisions of that headphone though) - the sound-stage is more natural (vs the artificially large AKG stage, S-LOGIC is good at presenting intimate recordings as intimate recordings, but also translating the space of a large orchestral piece or a videogame/movie's surround sound mix), the bass response (and quality) is improved, the detail level is higher, and they're faster. However, lest you go thinking they're bulletproof, they can be brutally revealing (and unforgiving) of low quality sources and/or harsh recordings, I've said it before and will probably say it again: "Ultrasone PRO2900 - nails driven on demand!" :veryevil: The AKG, while not significantly better in this respect, are less offensive when fed lower quality material. So that's something to keep in mind. And I don't just mean low quality in terms of "oh well I have flac so it's fine" - if you have a lot of really clashy and abrasive sounding recordings, the 2900 will probably do them no favors, where the AKGs might, and something more laid-back like the Sennheisers would probably do even better. That said, I do enjoy my 2900s with various rock and metal albums, as well as lots of different electronic genres, but they're more likely than most of my other headphones to expose strident/over-bright recordings.

 

[433115]

Hmm... I'll have to think on it. Would you say though, that the differences in this range are pretty subtle? I mean they're all really high-end and the differences are only if you're trying to nit-pick, or are they obvious right away?
 
Because if they're all really great, then I might just start choosing based on impedance and aesthetics and how comfortable they look instead of worrying too much about the rest. Sure would make choosing easier.

 

[433115]

I think I've decided on what I'm going to do.
 
I've decided to eliminate any headphones with an impedance of over 50 ohms. This is because I want a headphone that can be driven without amps being an absolute requirement. Who knows, my little amp may eventually break, or the need of an amp may inconvenience me. I also like to roam my house with my headphones on with my headphones connected to my phone.
 
I also decided to eliminate closed headphones. I'm very curious about open headphones and want to try them.
 
So, this did good to eliminate many of my choices, essentially leaving only three, very widely loved headphones.
 
Philips Fidelio X2
 
Ultrasone PRO 2900
 
HiFiMAN HE400S
 
Then I looked into reviews. The HE400S has tons of positive reviews on Amazon, but really I take them with a grain of salt. On Head-Fi, it seems that people say that they lack extension into the top or bottom areas. Compared to the 2900 and X2 which have good reviews, I think I can elminate them.
 
That leaves the Fidelio and the 2900... though I may still try the 400S out of curiosity about planar magnetic headphones.
 
So I think that may be the path I take. Trying these three out for myself and seeing which I want. If I happen to just fall in love with one along the way then so be it. Sound like a plan?
 
The 2900 is over-ear, yes? I don't like on-ear headphones. That's why I never go for Grado or anything.

 

[Rozenberg]

 
Then I looked into reviews. The HE400S has tons of positive reviews on Amazon, but really I take them with a grain of salt. On Head-Fi, it seems that people say that they lack extension into the top or bottom areas.

It is, I have bought one for my friend and fortunately he likes it a lot. But I don't really like it because it is lacking in the top. Overall it's pretty balanced but just as you said, it's lacking treble for my preference. Despite the impedance though, it could be fairly difficult to drive directly from phone or laptop. My friend's Sony Xperia Z1 Compact and Asus laptop unable to drive it, or so he said.
But again if you're thinking of getting a DAC/amp, that might not be a problem.

 

[433115]

  It is, I have bought one for my friend and fortunately he likes it a lot. But I don't really like it because it is lacking in the top. Overall it's pretty balanced but just as you said, it's lacking treble for my preference. Despite the impedance though, it could be fairly difficult to drive directly from phone or laptop. My friend's Sony Xperia Z1 Compact and Asus laptop unable to drive it, or so he said.
But again if you're thinking of getting a DAC/amp, that might not be a problem.

 
Hmm... well in that case, perhaps I will make it between the X2 and the 2900. It's good to eliminate down to two candidates, doing too many returns would be strange.
 
And I suppose X2 vs 2900 would be a good representation of "warm" vs "cool" within neutrality thresholds.

 

[Rozenberg]

Hmm... well in that case, perhaps I will make it between the X2 and the 2900. It's good to eliminate down to two candidates, doing too many returns would be strange.

Doesn't mean it's bad tho, although X2 build quality feels much much more premium. You can't go wrong with either X2 or 400s or HD650, but if you're looking for easiest to drive, good looking, feel tough and simpler, then X2 falls into dem categories. X2 replacement cable is also easier and cheaper to find.

 

[dudlew]

I will say this... As for music production... Don't depend on headphones. U will most likely need something else to verify the mix...... Monitors... Ur home stereo etc. Most importantly, u need to learn the sig of ur phone. I have mixed with a cheap realistic headphone and some nht ST4 speakers and it turned out OK. Just keep that in mind

D

 

[yding202]

How willing to stretch are you, in terms of budget? Audeze EL8 retails for $699 but you can get an Open Box or used for $550 or so.  Definitely a bit over your price range, but I would consider it in the same class. It also has impedance less than 50.