[Riordan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by VicAjax while this definition may appeal to diehard john peel anglophiliacs, i think it's somewhat myopic. Dorfmeister noted the wikipedia article as a reference point, and perusing its list of post-punk bands, three of the four i mentioned are there. the only one missing from the list is The Dead Kennedys, which i grant you really fits more in the "hardcore" category. however, by the commonly accepted standards of post-punk, dead kennedys would indeed qualify, as they had superior musical abilities and more complex song structure than the original punk wave.

i see your point (even though i AM myopic both in the original and the island-centric sense

. if wire is included, why not the kennedys, agreed. i've been thinking about my own definition, and if i lay aside the "brits only" dogma for a while, both minutemen (mike watt's bass!) and mission of burma belong there.

BUT (slightly off topic in an attempt to clear things up by muddling them) where are the british hardcore bands? snuff or rancid aren't much related musically to minor threat, fugazi or no means no, let alone hüsker dü. there's something very british about what i count as post-punk, and something very american about what i believe to be hardcore.

so all in all i still stand behind my "post-punk is british, hardcore is american" mantra

(hmm... then again... there were/are lots of german, scandinavian, even austrian hardcore-bands... uhm... please be gentle with my half-baked theories...

 

[catachresis]

I've enjoyed this thread -- very nuanced discussion, very informative.

I missed the Island rhythms of UK post-punk, but I'm all for the Talking Heads, Devo, B-52s, etc. having done something that was neither hardcore nor any sort of new-Romantic. What about the narrow-ish cow-punk movement: Eugene Chadbourne & Shockabilly, X & The Blasters, and very early KD Lang when she used to wear a thrift-store wedding dress and ****-kickers?

 

[donunus]

What about the smiths? aren't they also post-punk?

 

[VicAjax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riordan i see your point (even though i AM myopic both in the original and the island-centric sense . if wire is included, why not the kennedys, agreed. i've been thinking about my own definition, and if i lay aside the "brits only" dogma for a while, both minutemen (mike watt's bass!) and mission of burma belong there. BUT (slightly off topic in an attempt to clear things up by muddling them) where are the british hardcore bands? snuff or rancid aren't much related musically to minor threat, fugazi or no means no, let alone hüsker dü. there's something very british about what i count as post-punk, and something very american about what i believe to be hardcore. so all in all i still stand behind my "post-punk is british, hardcore is american" mantra (hmm... then again... there were/are lots of german, scandinavian, even austrian hardcore-bands... uhm... please be gentle with my half-baked theories...

well, i think we can both agree that genres (and especially sub-genres) are, for the most part, arbitrary and vague.

but they sure are fun to debate!

 

[Dorfmeister]

My Proposal:

Gang of Four is the archetypal Post-Punk band and "Entertainment" is the archetypal Post-Punk album.

 

[bong]

i would hesitate to say that Post-Punk is strictly a British thing, but i do think a lot of it does come from the UK side of things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by donunus What about the smiths? aren't they also post-punk?

The Smiths does fit within the Post-Punk reference, but i feel they're in a period where Post-Punk started to branch out to many different sub-genres. IMHO i would say The Smiths belong to Jangle-Pop or Alternative-Pop along with The Housemartins and early REM.

heh... i'm listening to Meat is Murder right now.

 

[Dorfmeister]

I do think Post-Punk is to a great extent a British phenomenon. It is about intelligence, artiness, and a desire for novelty. The Talking Heads would be the archetypal example of American Post-punk. It is interesting to see how many British bands were formed by art students. It is significant that the Talking Heads were formed at the Rhode Island School of Design.

I think the Post Punk artists were looking to artists like Roxy Music, the Velvet Underground, David Bowie, Eno, Televsion, Patti Smith, Kraftwerk, Krautrock in general, Glam. Hell, the Gang of Four were influenced by James Brown. Many were also influenced by artistic/political movements like Dada and Situationism.

Post Punk artists generally had a wider view of culture than punks did. Punk gave the impetus to feel that they could do it themselves but I think many of the post-punk artists saw punk as limiting and ultimately a dead end. I know I felt that way at 15 in 1979. Punk just wasn't very interesting, for the most part, after you got past all the attitude.

I think with hardcore there was always been at least a pose of dropping out by playing "dumb". Not to say that punks are dumb but that this pose represented a thumbing of the nose at the demands and expectations of the conventional middle class and it's emphasis on success and money.

Hardcore strikes me as fundamentally American. I have always associated it with California.

 

[jonnyhambone]

it's a bit sacrilige to even say, but early Joe Jackson seems to touch on much of the music coming out now that references post-punk as it's impetus...Radio 4, Bloc Party, Clap Yer Hands-Say Yeah, even odd moments of Interpol. I hear him as much as the Clash or Gang of Four in some of this stuff.

 

[Dorfmeister]

To me Post-Punk reaches it's highest point in 79-80 with Gang of Four, Wire, Public Image Limited, The Fall, Pere Ubu, The Feelies, The Raincoats, The Slits, Talking Heads, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Echo and the Bunnymen, The Teardrop Explodes, Killing Joke, Throbbing Gristle, Magazine, the Psychedelic Furs, Joy Division, The Cure, Mission of Burma, etc. all doing their finest or some of their finest work.

This is its peak and I think bands like the Smiths, while very good in their own right, are to a certain extent following a path paved by the first wave of post-punk.

 

[gratefulshrink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorfmeister My Proposal: Gang of Four is the archetypal Post-Punk album and "Entertainment" is the archetypal Post-Punk album.

I second the proposal.

However, I would like to ammend it by stating that "Entertainment" also extends beyond genre classificiation due to its unique greatness.

 

[Dorfmeister]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gratefulshrink I second the proposal. However, I would like to ammend it by stating that "Entertainment" also extends beyond genre classificiation due to its unique greatness.

Definitely. It's one of my all time favorite albums.

 

[Davey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gratefulshrink I second the proposal. However, I would like to ammend it by stating that "Entertainment" also extends beyond genre classificiation due to its unique greatness.

Well put, oh grate one, but always remember that it's not just "Entertainment" we're talking about, it's "Entertainment!". Apparently their recent shows kill too. Some might not agree, but I'd put Costello's "This Year's Model" right up there too. Just as much of the snarl as any of the rest. And how can you leave out the Buzzcocks and the Jam? Tough call since they were both pop leaning, but what a legacy, just like XTC. Lot's of great bands and albums already mentioned, but really kind of a silly subject. They're all just great bands and albums. Y'all sound like a bunch of librarians

 

[Dorfmeister]

[QUOTE\]Lot's of great bands and albums already mentioned, but really kind of a silly subject. They're all just great bands and albums. Y'all sound like a bunch of librarians

[/QUOTE]

Well hey, let's remember that we are on a board where people make thousands of posts about the relative merits of various types of headphones. I am guessing most of the world would find this whole board ludicrous.

But I enjoy it, and I am guessing that for the most part you do too.

 

[gratefulshrink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorfmeister I do think Post-Punk is to a great extent a British phenomenon. It is about intelligence, artiness, and a desire for novelty. The Talking Heads would be the archetypal example of American Post-punk. It is interesting to see how many British bands were formed by art students. It is significant that the Talking Heads were formed at the Rhode Island School of Design. I think the Post Punk artists were looking to artists like Roxy Music, the Velvet Underground, David Bowie, Eno, Televsion, Patti Smith, Kraftwerk, Krautrock in general, Glam. Hell, the Gang of Four were influenced by James Brown. Many were also influenced by artistic/political movements like Dada and Situationism. Post Punk artists generally had a wider view of culture than punks did. Punk gave the impetus to feel that they could do it themselves but I think many of the post-punk artists saw punk as limiting and ultimately a dead end. I know I felt that way at 15 in 1979. Punk just wasn't very interesting, for the most part, after you got past all the attitude. I think with hardcore there was always been at least a pose of dropping out by playing "dumb". Not to say that punks are dumb but that this pose represented a thumbing of the nose at the demands and expectations of the conventional middle class and it's emphasis on success and money. Hardcore strikes me as fundamentally American. I have always associated it with California.

Well-written post, and I basically agree with all of your points.

I might add that while much of punk was attitude, resulting in the music tending towards the monotonous, certain great punk songs have stood the test of time as good rock/pop artifacts. Take classic Sex Pistols or Ramones or Damned -- the music sounds classic and freash simultaneously.
Off topic and IMHO, of course.

 

[gratefulshrink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davey Y'all sound like a bunch of librarians

Sure, but we've got the best stuff in our library.....