Dedicated Source vs Computer as Source

[CarbonTi]

As others have also noted, the comparison of computer vs. dedicated source can be an apples to oranges comparison - what components in the chain are being examined? Transport only? Transport + DAC as in a CDP one box solution?

Those who claim the CDP sounds better, might they be hearing the better DAC?

PC: HDSP3296>AES/EBU>Electrocompaniet ECD-1>XLR>Krell Preamp>ATC-SCM20ASL
Dedicated Transport: JVC-TN1050>Toslink>Electrocompaniet ECD-1>XLR>Krell Preamp>ATC-SCM20ASL

For me, running the same DAC in the chain, PC vs. dedicated transport sounds the same. I have it setup this way so I don't have to rip to be able to play redbook cd's I don't want to add to the music server - and to AB test for my curiosity.

Sure, run the JVC as a CDP on its internal DAC and it sounds less than current SOTA but that's what 15 years of digital DAC progress will get you.

I'm not convinced that a SOTA transport will make any difference in real-time extraction of digital CD redbook data that betters what EAC can rip in a non-real-time data extraction.

There's a good reason many of the high end CDP manufacturers don't offer a stand alone DAC to canibalize their CDP one-box offerings.

 

[vcoheda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarbonTi /img/forum/go_quote.gif As others have also noted, the comparison of computer vs. dedicated source can be an apples to oranges comparison - what components in the chain are being examined? Transport only? Transport + DAC as in a CDP one box solution? Those who claim the CDP sounds better, might they be hearing the better DAC?

for a long time, i used a computer based setup. that was all i listened to. i had a whole hard drive full of music. but for some reason, i started to listen to my stand alone again and comparing the two systems (not short comparisons, but lengthy ones using FLAC or WAV on the cpu), i found the stand alone to be superior. so much so that i totally abandoned my computer setup and all that encoded music and don't see myself ever going back. i used an apogee mini dac in both systems (USB connection for the computer and coaxial for the stand alone) and the same ICs, headphones, and amps. the only true difference was the computer v. my myryad z110, which i used as a transport. that's my personal experience. other's of course may differ.

 

[Lord Chaos]

I've been using a computer as my main source for about a year... and have no desire to go back. That said, there are some caveats.

1. Once the CDs are ripped and put away, you no longer have easy access to the liner notes.

2. Ripping is a major investment of time, especially when you realize you have to check all the tags. I recommend you have some good books, and just keep plugging away. Reading, ripping and 'rithmetic...

3. If the computer has a problem reading a disc, you won't know until you play it. Itunes seems to be worse in this regard than other programs I've used. It won't read an impossible disc, but it will read one with errors and it won't report the errors. So, you're listening along months later and get bursts of static. Now you have to dig up the disc from the physical archive and re-rip.

If all works as it should, and it does almost all the time, bits are bits. The quality of playback will depend entirely upon the quality of your digital-to-analog conversion.

 

[vcoheda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Chaos /img/forum/go_quote.gif If all works as it should, and it does almost all the time, bits are bits. The quality of playback will depend entirely upon the quality of your digital-to-analog conversion.

well, that is the issue and i suspect a lot of people, myself included, would disagree with that statement.

 

[Icarium]

Shrug. My experience with a variety of dacs has led me to this belief. Yes a computer with a stellar dac can outmatch an okay cd player.

However, with any dac. Computer -> dac vs cd player -> same dac. The latter combo of cd player -> same dac will win.

As for stand alone single box units vs computer + dac? Shrug it all depends on which models you talk about.

Also are you regarding systems like the Nova Memory player and the VRS II or whatever 40k memory player? I've heard the Nova Memory player is only so so and can be destroyed by a good cd player set up... Mikhail and others who have hard the VRS II say it is possibly the best source they've ever heard. So really its not like harddrive based systems on the whole don't have a lot of potential. But in the more consumer level pricing bracket... I think a cd based system will be hard for any computer based system to beat.

 

[MGLDyson]

Thanks guys (especailly Shambla and Jigglybootch) for still tackling my original post. I thought by this point in the replies that it had changed to backing up data. Anyway, sorry if my OP was not clear, I think I was assuming I would be going from the CDP to an external DAC then an amp and then some phones.

Even from the latest posts, I think I will focus on the DAC and amp, for now. It seems like it will be more effective for me to do so considering I want a better amp and DAC, anyway. For the money I will be spending I think I will get the most for my money going this route.

Thanks again guys.

 

[Jigglybootch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MGLDyson /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks guys (especailly Shambla and Jigglybootch) for still tackling my original post. I thought by this point in the replies that it had changed to backing up data. Anyway, sorry if my OP was not clear, I think I was assuming I would be going from the CDP to an external DAC then an amp and then some phones. Even from the latest posts, I think I will focus on the DAC and amp, for now. It seems like it will be more effective for me to do so considering I want a better amp and DAC, anyway. For the money I will be spending I think I will get the most for my money going this route. Thanks again guys.

If you've already got the setup for going from the computer to a DAC, and you're happy with it, it makes the most sense to maximize the quality of what you've got, rather than scrapping it and starting over. And besides, for the money you were willing to drop on a dedicated CDP, there are some pretty nice DAC options.

 

[gregeas]

I sold my $2.5k Arcam CD player and my $3k+ Arcam universal player because I prefer both the sound and ergonomics of PC audio. My new sources are the Slimdevices Transporter and the USB DAC1, both of which do a very nice job with lossless audio.

I have several different systems scattered around, so duplicating CDs wasn't an option for me. But convenience aside, I definitely prefer the Transporter's audio output to that of the top-of-the-line Arcam players. I'm testing the USB DAC1 right now, it sounds pretty damn good as well. I love the idea of a minimalist rig consisting of the USB DAC1 and small laptop (I have the Dell M1210 with a 160GB internal drive that stores about 130 lossless albums; toss in the Shure e500s, and you're all set).

BTW, J River Media Center 12 is an excellent front end. The album art interface is really nice.

 

[OverlordXenu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icarium /img/forum/go_quote.gif Shrug. My experience with a variety of dacs has led me to this belief. Yes a computer with a stellar dac can outmatch an okay cd player. However, with any dac. Computer -> dac vs cd player -> same dac. The latter combo of cd player -> same dac will win.

Those bits on the CD really do sound better than the identical bits on the computer.

 

[Jigglybootch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OverlordXenu /img/forum/go_quote.gif Those bits on the CD really do sound better than the identical bits on the computer.

Do I sense a hint of sarcasm?

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MGLDyson /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi all, I am new to this game and my wallet is aching to be bled dry. As of now I am using my comp as source with PCM lossless wav files via EAC. This goes to the MOVE dac/amp combo and then to my HD580s with 650 cable. So on to my question... How much of a quality sound difference will I get from a dedicated source component (like a Rega CDP, around 1000USD mark) compared to my comp files running through a DAC to amp? Any info would be great. Other threads you know of, personal opinions, anything. Thanks.

I have both PC with an outboard DAC and a dedicated CD player. Both of them were carefully researched and are probably about the best you can get without going into crazy audiophile territory (please note that my version of crazy audiophile territory starts at about $10,000 a component, so keep that in mind). There is no comparison between the two, the dedicated CD player slays the PC. It's not that the PC sounds bad, because it actually sounds very good. It's that the CD player just sounds much more real. When I listen to the PC, I know I'm listening to a recording. It sounds very good, but there is just the tiniest hint of artificiality to it. With the CD player, it's very easy to get to the point where you think the musicians are in the room with you. If I'd never heard my CD player, I'd be of the opinion that there was no difference. But I have, and I can't convince myself otherwise just because "theoretically" there shouldn't be a difference.

Hope this helps

 

[OverlordXenu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jigglybootch /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do I sense a hint of sarcasm?

Not at all. The bit-perfect output of the CD transport sounds much better than the bit-perfect output of the computer with an EAC secure mode rip, encoded to FLAC. The CD transport wins hands down.

 

[Jigglybootch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OverlordXenu /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not at all. The bit-perfect output of the CD transport sounds much better than the bit-perfect output of the computer with an EAC secure mode rip, encoded to FLAC. The CD transport wins hands down.

But you've got to admit...the CD player is a bit nicer to look at!

 

[Icarium]

Shrug its what I've heard as have others, take it as you will.

Why buy a transporter? Why not just buy a squeezebox if you aren't even using the analog output anyways? For that matter why buy anything beyond an av710 for optical out? Or whatever the cheapest solution that can do 24bits/192 kHz? Why does there exist several different standards for digital xfer (Optical/Coax/BNC) if everything that goes through is equally perfect from standard to standard?

Maybe you should write the audio industry and let them know. Bit perfect is bit perfect and that CD players are obsolete.

Edit: Plus what do you really mean by bit perfect? I mean all bit perfect theoretically is is that all the bits from the source were conveyed. How about if your rip was not 100 percent and only 99.9 percent or less accurate in the first place? Sure maybe that rip was conveyed accurately via asio whatever but the original accuracy is still there. And even with EAC you are not going to make a perfect copy. Can people hear the difference? Perhaps I can. Perhaps others can. Maybe you can't, good for you. Also there is the factor of jitter. Jitter is somewhat a buzzword and it is somewhat of a question how much jitter can people really detect in the first place, but jitter does exist. From what I understand, the main source of jitter is desyncage between the computer clock and the dac clock. This results in distortion. There is jitter in cd players as well, but generally less. So yeah you can wave around "bit perfect" and use that as a security blanket if you will, but it does not mean that what your computer gives your dac is 100 percent equal to what a cd player can give the same dac.

 

[Jigglybootch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icarium /img/forum/go_quote.gif SThere is jitter in cd players as well, but generally less.

I always thought it was the other way around. Plus, isn't EAC supposed to compensate for and correct jitter when ripping? Not trying to ruffle any feathers, just asking.