[Tyll Hertsens]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif This forces me to buy a whole bunch of those cans. It's all Tyll's fault too.

Yeah ... well ... err ... sorry about your wallet, eh.

 

[dmk005]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif BTW, when I do a mix for the house, I always set the mix for the actual sound in the house to the listeners and only use the cans for identification of sources and verification of things. How it really sounds in the house to the listeners is what's really important. The recording mix is completely separate and I set that separately and do use the cans as a reference for that mix.

I admire those with experience doing this. I usually find myself in front of a mic instead of the board though...

I appreciate what you have pointed out about the different recording purposes. I have to say music production is an art and I just wish more time was taken to get music produced with higher quality results these days.

 

[zipdisk]

So when purchasing audio equipment you believe one should be guided by the quantitative specifications because other assessments are subjective and biased? But when you visit the doctor, you want a physician that thinks rather than relies solely on quantitative test scores?

 

[TheVinylRipper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zipdisk /img/forum/go_quote.gif So when purchasing audio equipment you believe one should be guided by the quantitative specifications because other assessments are subjective and biased? But when you visit the doctor, you want a physician that thinks rather than relies solely on quantitative test scores?

What makes you think that a "high thinking" doctor relies solely on quantitative test scores?

The truly competent individual gathers as much information as they can, considers the information in light of their training and experience and then makes a tentative judgment based upon the evidence. The truly competent individual is always reevaluating the situation based upon further ongoing evidence collection. In the case of an MD, the evidence definitely includes the patient's subjective experiences. How could it be otherwise?

And I don't pick anything based solely upon specifications. There are many things I consider when purchasing any item, I give the greatest weight to "bang for the buck", is the purchase going to do what I want at a reasonable price? For instance, the grocery store I frequent has store brand items at considerably lower price than the advertised items and they also have a policy of taking it back no questions asked if you don't like it. I've tried all the store brand items of those things I normally purchase and those I like I continue to buy and those I don't I don't buy any more.

I bought a Harmon Kardon receiver to replace a Pioneer receiver for both aesthetic and functional reasons. The aesthetics were that I greatly preferred the HK's looks to the those of the Pioneer. The functional was that the HK had a much higher instantaneous output current rating and I had low impedance speakers. Another factor is that the store made an error and put the wrong price on the HK in their ad and had no disclaimer in the ad. I got the receiver for the much lower price.

Unusual technology appeals to me, I bought a pair of orthodynamic headphones just recently based upon what I had read here on headfi and my being able to get a good price. I'm in the position of most headfiers in not having access to audition the great majority of products I see on the internet. In the case of the orthodynamic phones I made my judgment based upon my liking for unusual technology, reasonable price and the subjective impressions of other headfiers.

 

[kwkarth]

So the world has come full circle my friends. Subjective opinions are at east as important as objective measurement, nay, dare I say, more important. Neither is complete without the other. As has been said, objective measurements can be used effectively to often weed out the undesirable, but to truly find audio nirvana for the discriminating ear, subjective impression is what really gets the job done, in the final analysis.

Ya gotta live with what you listen to, so you may as well like it.

"The chief end (main motivator) of man is happiness." May you all find the audio bliss you seek, and more!

 

[TheVinylRipper]

It is both amusing and more than a little ironic that literally everything I have written on this thread has been misunderstood and distorted into a totally different statement than what I originally wrote.

I try hard to make my meaning as clear as I can make it, and yet what I write is taken every way except the way I meant it.

IMO, the reason for this is that I state uncomfortable things for many on this board. Things which you do not wish to admit, particularly to yourselves.

Other than two criteria, output current capability and output impedance which go hand in hand with each other, modern amplifiers differ from each other in ways that are far exceeded by the differences in transducers.

In actual fact I've learned a lot on this thread, but the single thing that I have most noticed is something I already knew. People hear what they want to hear, both in equipment and in the written word.

It would be very painful for someone who has spent hundreds or even thousands of dollars to admit to themselves that they have wasted their money, so they attack those who even dare to suggest it. None of us wish to admit that we have been duped, or even worse, duped ourselves.

I think the sheer level of ferocity aimed at me on this thread is indicative of the fact that many of you suspect that you have duped yourselves but cannot bring yourselves to admit it. I have no concrete proof of this but it certainly falls in line with what I know of human nature.

I bought a fairly expensive product not all that long ago and then found out I had been duped. I was angry at those who had duped me but I was even more angry at myself for failing to be sufficiently skeptical.

Quote:

“Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.” -Robert A Heinlein

 

[SysteX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif In actual fact I've learned a lot on this thread, but the single thing that I have most noticed is something I already knew. People hear what they want to hear, both in equipment and in the written word.

You say this as if it's a terrible thing. If someone thinks that a $100,000+ amp sound significantly better than a $1,000 than so be it. It has been shown numerous times that the placebo effect has real, chemical implications in the brain. By looking at brain function scans, it has been determined that (for a given study in which subjects listen to two different samples) subjects who are influenced by the placebo effect are actually perceiving something different. Even if the two auditory samples are the same, the placebo effect can and does influence actual brain activity.

What I'm saying here is that for those that truly believe that the $100,000 amp is much better, they will perceive it as such--no, it's not a "trick"; and I'm not talking about any scientific measures of THD, etc. Even if the root cause of the better sound is the placebo effect, the electro-chemical signals that reach the brain will be different for the "better" amp than for the "worse" amp. It's not that we're tricking ourselves, we are actually hearing a better sound!

If someone wants to pay loads of money for the ultimate case of the placebo effect, then go for it--if they are a true believer it will actually sound better.

 

[Febs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif It is both amusing and more than a little ironic that literally everything I have written on this thread has been misunderstood and distorted into a totally different statement than what I originally wrote.

I think that there are plenty of people who understand completely what you wrote but simply do not agree with it. Yours is not the only opinion.

Quote:

I think the sheer level of ferocity aimed at me on this thread is indicative of the fact that many of you suspect that you have duped yourselves but cannot bring yourselves to admit it.

Some of the "ferocity" that has been directed at you has been from people who agree with your substantive points, so this is clearly not true. Can we please not go there again?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth So the world has come full circle my friends. Subjective opinions are at east as important as objective measurement, nay, dare I say, more important. Neither is complete without the other. As has been said, objective measurements can be used effectively to often weed out the undesirable, but truly find audio nirvana for the discriminating ear, subjective impression is what really gets the job done, in the final analysis.

Well said, kw, especially the sentence that I've put in bold. As is probably pretty clear from my other posts in this thread, I am a fan of double-blind testing. I suppose that puts me in the "objectivist" camp if one were to force me to pick a label. That doesn't mean that I believe that there are no differences between different pieces of gear. It simply means that where possible (and for many practical reasons, it is not always possible) to confirm that what I am hearing is actually a difference produced by the gear itself and not by the limits of my own perceptions. Measures and DBTs can both help in that respect. But once I can eliminate my own limitations as the cause of differences, then the only thing that really matters is my subjective impression. Does this sound good to me, or not? That's what really matters in the end.

 

[Mastergill]

Hey man, next time you bump into an audio site try to be a little less arrogant especially when you don't know what you're talking about.

You obviously don't know what high quality audio is.

Do you blame also Porsche owners because they spent lot of money into cars while they could have bought a cheap VW?

Me, i'm not into cars, but i've spend lot of money into audio since my first paycheck when i was 16 and i have absolutely no regret for it. Music is so important for me that it deserves the best reproduction possible. And this hobby is very cheap compared to cars or many others...

Your bitterness is a little pathetic my friend. Try to enjoy life before it's too late.

 

[TheVinylRipper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mastergill /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do you blame also Porsche owners because they spent lot of money into cars while they could have bought a cheap VW?

I've had a Lotus Elite, a Sunbeam Tiger, a Roadrunner, a GTO, a Q45 and several fast motorcyles..

There is an objective difference between different models of cars.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've had a Lotus Elite, a Sunbeam Tiger, a Roadrunner, a GTO, a Q45 and several fast motorcyles.. There is an objective difference between different models of cars.

What have motor cars and bikes to do with audio? A good engine does sound wonderful when the pedal is put to the metal. That's audio, I guess.

But really, VR, are you then implying that there is no objective difference between amplifiers? Come now, we know that is not the case either. We may not know how to objectively quantify all that we hear, but we're learning. In the mean time, there are many objective differences between amplifiers, not to mention the subjective ones.

I drive a Porsche Cayenne Turbo. 0-60 in 5 seconds, and it stops and corners just as well. It can cruise at 165mph all day long. I've only had it to 140mph, at the track when going around turn 12 @ PIR. Talk about fun! Passing a bunch of 911s in a 4 wheel slide on the outside around the corner at 140. At the end of that wide sweeper is a chicane that you can't enter going over 40 or you're off the track, and the six piston calipers haul that baby down in nothing flat. This kind of performance in an SUV? That car is easily 20x the cost of what I could have bought to schlep from point a to point b.

Granted, going from A to B is an objective measurement, but should we stop there? Some would, and that's fine. I chose not to stop there, and except for my wallet, boy howdy am I ever glad I didn't stop! I've never had so much fun going from point A to point B in my life. The sheer joy and exhilaration has been, and is worth every penny to me at this point. I may change my subjective mind some time in the future, but for now, this is truly fun. Life is worth enjoying if and when you can without harming someone else. So, too, are all things audio my friend. MasterGill has a much nicer audio system than I do, and I admire and respect that. Because he chooses not to drive a Porsche, I think no less of him. That is his choice. Let us be happy with the choices we make.

Cheers!

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif What have motor cars and bikes to do with audio? A good engine does sound wonderful when the pedal is put to the metal. That's audio, I guess. But really, VR, are you then implying that there is no objective difference between amplifiers? Come now, we know that is not the case either. We may not know how to objectively quantify all that we hear, but we're learning. In the mean time, there are many objective differences between amplifiers, not to mention the subjective ones. I drive a Porsche Cayenne Turbo. 0-60 in 5 seconds, and it stops and corners just as well. It can cruise at 165mph all day long. I've only had it to 140mph, at the track when going around turn 12 @ PIR. Talk about fun! Passing a bunch of 911s in a 4 wheel slide on the outside around the corner at 140. At the end of that wide sweeper is a chicane that you can't enter going over 40 or you're off the track, and the six piston calipers haul that baby down in nothing flat. This kind of performance in an SUV? That car is easily 20x the cost of what I could have bought to schlep from point a to point b. Granted, going from A to B is an objective measurement, but should we stop there? Some would, and that's fine. I chose not to stop there, and except for my wallet, boy howdy am I ever glad I didn't stop! I've never had so much fun going from point A to point B in my life. The sheer joy and exhilaration has been, and is worth every penny to me at this point. I may change my subjective mind some time in the future, but for now, this is truly fun. Life is worth enjoying if and when you can without harming someone else. So, too, are all things audio my friend. Cheers!

Conclusion;

buy what you think is worth the money and gives you the most pleasure!
it is your money and leisure!

 

[tourmaline]

tyll,

looking at the graphs of the hd650, it is pretty good. The one thing i found about the hd650 is the smearing of the sound, when you listen to complex music.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif tyll, looking at the graphs of the hd650, it is pretty good. The one thing i found about the hd650 is the smearing of the sound, when you listen to complex music.

Do you have a can that does not exhibit the same smearing in your setup?

Let's see if we can pin this "smearing" down to a specific objective measurable parameter. Could this artifact be the product of phase shift across the spectrum?

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do you have a can that does not exhibit the same smearing in your setup? Let's see if we can pin this "smearing" down to a specific objective measurable parameter. Could this artifact be the product of phase shift across the spectrum?

hd600 didn't have that problem as much as the hd650 has, i think. it just all gets a bit messy when it gets very complex. I heard more people talking about it in comparison to the akg 701, for instance.

I might try the akg 701 someday or wait till the new sennheiser is revealed. But 300 vs 1000 dollars or more is not really a contest, or the sennheiser must really be something special, then i could be tempted.