Decent quality non-oversampling DAC that doesn't cost an arm and a leg?

[Nazo]

Between comparing various things, I've decided that I just don't really like oversampling DACs. Oh, I do enjoy the sound of the AKM in my E-MU 0404 PCI, but in the end, I still find it to be a bit harsher and it does not sound better at all to me versus, for example, the SONY PSX SCPH-1001 as a CD player. (Of course, I think it doesn't help that my headphones don't really need the oversampling.)

There's just one problem. Either I need a card that's decent at gaming (it doesn't have to be great -- I never really noticed that much of a performance difference anyway over the years -- but it should work better than this E-MU 0404 PCI which actually will drop sounds and that sort of thing for some odd reason) or I need one with support for a digital input as I currently have a SB Audigy 2 ZS Platinum which works just fine for modern games and I believe will continue to do so for quite some time actually (especially given that the newer Audigy 4 and X-Fi aren't actually all that significantly better as far as how the hardware actually works.) Of course, getting a new soundcard with a digital output support isn't exactly hard. My onboard has it and will do in a pinch for gaming even.

I don't care whether it's an external DAC or a decoder or whatever -- so long as it's good at stereo processing obviously since I won't be using surround sound (even when I use speakers I'm using a 2.1 set now.) I'll be solely using the PC for the music and etc and both the onboard and Audigy 2 have digital outputs, so this is sufficient. Of course, I don't really think I want it to resample to 48KHz (perhaps the RealTek is able to do 44.1KHz though.) If it were an external DAC, music could be handled by making that card secondary and having audio players go straight to it (which is what I'm doing with the 0404 PCI anyway) but I do want it to handle sound from gaming and such as I sometimes want the benefits of the higher quality sound on the rare few games that actually have truly well made music (and yes, there are some.) Also, it doesn't have to have a headphone amp even as I'm happy with the one I have already. In fact, a line out would be ideal now. My current amp is just about perfect for what I want without going into unreasonable price ranges. It does have to not cost me an arm and a leg though as I was never the richest of people and it has only grown worse as the economy worsened and my hours decreased with it. I'm thinking of a pricerange from $100 on down and even that is stretching it a bit.

Any thoughts? Is such a thing even possible at a pricerange like that? I'm not sure if it is, but I really have to at least ask. (Oh, and btw, I have no confidence to DIY anything myself -- though anything that wouldn't cost too much to get someone else to make would be considered.)

 

[leeperry]

I'd say that what you don't like in the cards you're mentioning are the 5532/2068 op-amps, which sound pretty bad...I really don' think that you want a 20yo NOS DAC, but that's just me

op-amps make far more difference to your sound than DAC's ever will: The X-Meridian 7.1 Thread [Text View] - Page 7 - AVS Forum

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Everybody -in different locations, at different times, without knowing from each other- told the same story, that they found the differences between opamps more important than the differences in dac chips.

 

[Nazo]

Assuming perhaps that this were the case, unless there's a way to bypass the opamps on my current card without damaging it (eg it'd have to be pretty darned easy or I'm going to screw it up somehow with my luck as it is right now) this means I still have to look into other possibilities. I must admit that I still have serious doubts about oversampling DACs in general though. It seems like in my experience the oversampling DACs have always sounded harsher to me. For example, even my Cowon D2 player with its Wolfson WM8985G DAC/AMP sounds a little harsh to me.

I definitely don't see myself switching opamps with this thing though. That's a bit more than I'd really dare to do with it.

EDIT: BTW, at a quick glance at your signature, I'm reminded that my first foray into the audiophile (or perhaps baby-audiophile) soundcard world was an Alien DAC. The OPAMP I was using was the OPA2134 (same as the 2132 really, just the max specs go beyond audio and it handles lower voltages a tiny bit better. Not always worth the extra you have to spend, but I liked that it could handle lower voltages better since I seemed to go through batteries pretty quickly.) It too I found quite harsh. I also tried the OPA2227 which a lot of people seem to love, but hated that thing. The Burr-Brown in the Alien is also oversampling, albeit not one of those that oversample by huge amounts like 128x. Perhaps there too I needed a better opamp (though I got the impression I'd have to do a brown-dog adapter and everything even to get the right types) but perhaps this might give you at least some sort of reference.

I haven't tried a CMoy on the PSX (I think I still have one somewhere, so I may give this a shot at some point for further comparison) but my current headphone amp (the iBasso D3 btw) sounds great from the PSX. I haven't gotten around to bypassing the opamps in it yet, but so far it sounds fine this way. (Well, I don't trust myself to actually bypass them, but, apparently you can wire normal connectors directly to the solder points for the A/V dongle and thus bypass the dongle itself to get an unamplified output.)

 

[leeperry]

well, the only NOS DAC's I've read about were cheapo 20yo Philips IC's...that were already generic low-end stuff at that time: eBay.com : Gigalab NOS USB DAC TDA1543 1ppm TCXO Dual clock ver. objet 280377110576 fin)

I don't think you can beat an AK4396/PCM1792 w/ 128X oversampling....well it might sound harsh, but the NOS Philips chip will sound distorted as hell

you can tame down a harsh DAC w/ the right op-amps, but when the signal is distorted...there ain't much you can do.

oh yeah, I just put these OPA2132P a few hours back, I think I like them actualy...lot less harsh than the LM4562, lol this one is way over the top trebles-wise

I still got the OPA2227 and OPA2107 to try, apparently the later is pretty good stuff!

 

[Nazo]

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Originally Posted by leeperry /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think you can beat an AK4396/PCM1792 w/ 128X oversampling....well it might sound harsh, but the NOS Philips chip will sound distorted as hell

All I can tell you for certain here is that the 1-bit AKM AK4309 in my PSX sounds good to me. *Shrugs* I'm sure if you compare the two digitally to the original sound, the oversampling is probably technically closer, but to me at least the 4309 sounds better. I realize this sounds COMPLETELY counter-intuitive when discussing sound quality, but, distortion isn't always completely bad I guess. Obviously not just any random non-oversampling DAC will do though I'll admit.

Now, I know already that there are some recent options out there that can provide you with a non-oversampling DAC. However, the stuff I've discussed in previous threads on here was generally above my budget unfortunately. That said, they do exist and certainly not all will sound bad. There's no doubt that many will though, which is why I can't just grab any old card or something.

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oh yeah, I just put these OPA2132P a few hours back, I think I like them actualy...lot less harsh than the LM4562, lol this one is way over the top trebles-wise

See, to me the OPA213x is almost painful. I guess I should note here that these headphones are a bit bright. The only alternative is to try to get a darker opamp even, but, honestly, I'm loving the sound out of that PSX so much that I'd really much rather aim more for something along those lines. It's not too bright, nor too dark and still seems to have the detail and quality I'm getting with this FAR more recent soundcard... Unfortunately, having to deal with audio CDs all of the time is a royal pain. Especially when you don't like to listen to many whole albums at a time. I have a boatload of mix CDs and I'm not satisfied. (Sometimes I truly wish there were a way to use that thing as an external DAC and just forgo the whole silly CD thing.)

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I still got the OPA2227 and OPA2107 to try, apparently the later is pretty good stuff!

I'm not familiar with the 2107. The 2227 mainly has the low end going for it by all the praises I ever saw for it. Honestly, to me it just sounded muffled and dark. I must admit, I prefer something of a neutral or even ever so slightly recessed bass though, so I imagine it's a matter of preference and if you like bass a lot you might find it to be a far better chip perhaps. Then again, as I've said, my headphones just don't seem to get along well with these opamps. (Whatever the D3 uses though seems about just right. I think it was actually also a Burr-Brown, but I really can't remember and it's difficult to find much discussion about the internals.)


PS. Upon further thought, I'll put up with something without a digital input if all else fails. I really want one card to act as the only soundcard if at all possible and continue to enjoy the benefits in things like games, but music is the top priority and if a digital input must be sacrificed it will be. I must admit though, I really would truly enjoy having something external that could be used as a decoder with any soundcards I should have now or get in the future.

 

[leeperry]

but an op-amp is very dependent on its surrounding design, and its function(I/V, buffer) etc...so it's hard to generalize.

this said, the 5532/2068 that are on the 2 cards you metioned(I think) don't have much goodness going for them...these are cheapo generic chips and will sound ugly no matter you do..

 

[leeperry]

OTOH, I'm killing some ugly spikes at 10K and 7K: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/5950226-post344.html

you can't expect any source to match your eardrum resonances..

 

[Nazo]

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Originally Posted by leeperry /img/forum/go_quote.gif but an op-amp is very dependent on its surrounding design, and its function(I/V, buffer) etc...so it's hard to generalize.

Nonetheless, I have to try.

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this said, the 5532/2068 that are on the 2 cards you metioned(I think) don't have much goodness going for them...these are cheapo generic chips and will sound ugly no matter you do..

Perhaps. However, so far I've been pretty darned dissatisfied with them all -- except that PSX.

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OTOH, I'm killing some ugly spikes at 10K and 7K: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/5950226-post344.html

I've never really liked equalization. My sound system is definitely not 100% neutral -- I'll never deny that. I will say that it's more neutral than a lot out there at least. Similarly, I will agree with you that my hearing is also not 100% neutral, but I definitely don't want to start trying to equalize to compensate for any unevenness there. Rather than relying on equalization, I'd rather take such a simple single step to eliminate the need for it. I already know that it is very possible to get the sound just right for me with the right hardware and as far as getting a CD player to do it I did so for about $30.

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you can't expect any source to match your eardrum resonances..

I never said I did. I just want something that sounds as good to my ears as that PSX or better on my PC.