dCS Verdi Encore CD transport with DSD upsampling - I like my computer better!

[JSTpt1022]

That Sonic poster on the left is vintage! Brings back memories...

 

[Patrick82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Salman Rushdie book is an interesting prop as well. Patrick, I was also wondering if you've run low on your supply of ERS paper? Your system is starting to look positively normal. What gives with that?

I don't use ERS Paper for my transports anymore because I like the sound of transport jitter combined with neutrality from the rest of the system.

ERS Paper around the headphone cable and around the DAC's power cord gave the biggest improvements in dynamics I have ever heard. ERS Paper for the transport only gives higher resolution and more bass, but it makes it too grey and smooth. It doesn't sound like real life.

Tweaks that improve dynamics makes it blacker and whiter with more low-level detail and extended frequencies, it also sounds many dB louder, it's great! Wrapping the headphone cable with toilet paper rolls and ERS Paper did this, remember the ERS Paper needs to be separated at least 1cm from the cable, otherwise it sounds worse.

 

[Patrick82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Quintet didn't fix the noise problem. I guess I need to live with it. But I noticed that the sound quality of the Verdi Encore improved from plugging it into the Quintet. I heard a quieter and calmer background. Now the Verdi sounds better than the computer so that's a good thing. I also found that the biggest improvement came from putting the Quintet between the wall and Premier Power Plant which is powering the Elgar Plus DAC. A new world of low-level detail opened up. I also got an improvement when I put the Quintet on top of Magix, I was surprised! With daisy chained power conditioners it sounds a little too warm, but the noise from the Verdi compensates for it to give synergy. When the Verdi is turned on, the thin transients sound whiter and more emphasized, but it sacrifices a little low-level detail to get it, however, since the daisy chained power conditioners give an overkill of low-level detail, this doesn't bother me. I can now keep the Verdi turned on!!

I don't like the Verdi Encore anymore. I'm hearing a huge improvement in low-level detail from switching it off. What's the point of having low jitter CD transports if they make the rest of the system worse? The digital cables are unplugged and the Verdi is plugged into a Quintet with Virtual Dynamics Genesis power cable. I don't know what is the reason for the edgy sound.

I guess I'm going to try to sell the Verdi and build a new computer transport with ST Glass output.

 

[Patrick82]

I added 3 Feet of Silence under the 4 Magix levitation feet, it didn't fix the problem of Verdi. I still got harshness in the sound whenever I turned the Verdi on.

Then I plugged in the digital cables between Verdi and Elgar. The brightness was horrible. The digital cables are about 75% of the brightness and the AC noise is about 25%.

Then I plugged in my Cary CD transport and connected it to Elgar with a cheap RCA cable. When I turned on the Cary I got little more brightness, but I was surprised that the Cary gives less noise than the Verdi.

Then I moved the Verdi from the Quintet into the Premier Power Plant which the Elgar DAC uses. I was surprised that the further increase in brightness wasn't as big as I thought. Normally when plugging in extra gear into the Premier it makes it horribly bright and fatiguing because of more distortion inside the Premier. But it wasn't too fatiguing. I also found that using the MultiWave for the Verdi gave a cool sound signature similar to Oyaide 037 connectors.

When turning the Verdi on it sounds harsh and fatiguing. But when putting the Verdi in standby it makes the computer sound very clean, smooth and white. There is whiteness all over the music and it comes from fat Valhalla power cord combined with jitter.
When listening to Verdi, it sounds more neutral but it doesn't really sound that good because of the noise problems. There is a lot of potential in sound quality in reference CD transports because of that reason. I don't know what the manufacturers are thinking when they design the components. Someone should make a proper functioning transport with optical connection.

The Verdi Encore + tweaks is $80k, and the computer just uses a modified Valhalla power cord and Magix levitation feet for $4k. Which of these transports is better overall I don't know yet, but I like the flavor of the computer better. People who say it's insane to plug a Valhalla power cord into the computer, think again. The Valhalla veils out the edginess to make it smooth and white, and with the Toslink connection, it makes it sound very clean.

 

[Patrick82]

I let the Verdi warm-up for a day and it helped a bit, but the difference wasn't as big as with computer warm-up.
I couldn't fall asleep because of the loud transformer humming. It sounded like a car engine. I had to put ear plugs on.


Toslink experiment

I unplugged the digital cables between Verdi and Elgar. Then I used a Toslink cable from the Verdi and listened to the Verdi, then I switched to Toslink with computer. Computer + Toslink sounded better than Verdi + Toslink. My Elgar DAC says 16/44.1 when using Toslink from Verdi and 24/44.1 when using Toslink from computer (EMU0404). That might have something to do with it.

Then I plugged the digital cables back in and listened to the Verdi. Even with the extra noise the Verdi + Firewire + word clock has more low-level detail than computer + Toslink. But the computer doesn't have as many tweaks as the Verdi has, and the computer has the fat Valhalla power cord which cuts off those low-level details, with the same power cord and tweaks they might have the same performance. So I'm going to sell the Verdi then.


RGC-24 Ground Conditioner

I was wondering why the Verdi sounds edgier than before, and why plugging in the digital cables made a bigger difference than ever before. Then I realized that I didn't have any RGC-24 Ground Conditioners plugged into the back of Verdi! I used to have 8 plugged into Elgar DAC and 2 into Verdi. Now I have 9 of them plugged into the Elgar DAC and none into Verdi, this way all the noise from Verdi go through the digital cables into the DAC!
I had an extra RGC-24 on my shelf (I have tweaks all over my room like candy of an obese man), so I plugged that into the rear of Verdi and got smoother sound!!!! The harshness was greatly reduced!! OMG what a tweak!

I unplugged it and got harsh sound. I plugged it back in and got smoother sound OMG!
Then I moved one RGC-24 from my Elgar DAC and plugged it to the Verdi. I got little harsher sound. Then I unplugged it from the Verdi and it got even harsher! Then I moved it back to the Elgar and got the smoothest sound!

Using 9 for Elgar and 1 for Verdi gave smoother sound than 8 for Elgar and 2 for Verdi. I was surprised how huge the difference was! The grounding noise paths need to be optimized in the system, otherwise the noise infects other gear through the cables. I wonder if this was the problem all along.

RGC-24 Ground Conditioner is so good that I'm not selling the Verdi!!!

 

[883dave]

Patrick,

Have you ever set up an osilliscope to check the power in your room?

I wonder if you have some sort of power problem or excessive noise?

 

[Patrick82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 883dave /img/forum/go_quote.gif Patrick, Have you ever set up an osilliscope to check the power in your room? I wonder if you have some sort of power problem or excessive noise?

No I haven't tried it, but I have PS Audio's Noise Harvesters which detect and reduce the noise.

I have moved into a new apartment with a dedicated line for my room. My Noise Harvesters used to blink every few seconds, but now they blink about once a minute. So the AC noise in my new apartment is greatly reduced.

I tried to turn off my computer and LCD but didn't hear a difference. But whenever I turned on the Verdi, I heard a difference. I found this thread: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/ni...s-fear-311031/

 

[Patrick82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Which of these transports is better overall I don't know yet, but I like the flavor of the computer better.

After I warmed up the Verdi Encore for 5 days it's now better than the computer. Warm-up makes a huge difference, the bass is so heavy it sounds like my headphones are going to break! It's crazy!
I listened to Verdi first, then I switched to computer and it sounded incomplete, veiled, boomy and edgy. The low-level details were lost in the background.

The reason that the Verdi is better is because of the Virtual Dynamics Genesis power cable which increased both blackness and whiteness and gave more low-level detail. I don't think the Genesis is a good match for the computer because then it would become too bright and fatiguing. The Genesis works best for low jitter transports.

Verdi + stock power cable gave thin and grey sound. Verdi + Genesis power cable gives heavy and clear sound.

Like I did with Valhalla power cord, I have once again built my system around my power cables. With Valhalla the best match was Benchmark DAC1 and ICEpower amp because Valhalla added boominess which compensated for the edginess. With Genesis the best match is a dCS stack because they are very smooth.

 

[selfdivider]

LOL. Reading this thread was like reading a short story! Congrats, Patrick.

Randerson: you have some great audio toys!

 

[randerson3024]

Quote:

Originally Posted by selfdivider /img/forum/go_quote.gif LOL. Reading this thread was like reading a short story! Congrats, Patrick. Randerson: you have some great audio toys!

Nice system. I heard Leben here in Singapore. I am thinking of getting an integrated for my AKG 1000's.

 

[Patrick82]

Would Virtual Dynamics Genesis 1.1 AES/EBU be better than Siltech Firewire for Redbook CD?

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Would Virtual Dynamics Genesis 1.1 AES/EBU be better than Siltech Firewire for Redbook CD?

The complete dCS system is one of the best on the market and best sounding systems you can get. But at almost 50.000 dollars/euro's not much people can afford it!

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 /img/forum/go_quote.gif People complained of my crappy source, so I borrowed money from the bank and upgraded from my Benchmark DAC1 to dCS Elgar Plus DAC and dCS Verdi Encore transport (DSD upsampling, Firewire and word clock). But it sounded bad because I didn't hear the sound of real life anymore, it was flat and boring. Computer transport is great The 100 times more expensive CD transport sounded worse than my tweaked computer. Even my 192kbps mp3's sounded better than SACD! After I put Magix levitation feet under the Verdi it got smoother with more low-level detail, but it still sounded worse than my levitating computer because it sounded too flat, smooth and neutral. So I kept listening to my computer instead because it's both heavier and sharper than neutral which makes it sound more like real life (the heaviness is from fat Valhalla power cord and the sharpness is from jitter). Problem with noise through cables My computer is connected to my DAC with a cheap Toslink and it sounds very clean. But with the Verdi, I noticed problems with the Firewire connection. Whenever the Verdi was turned on it made my system sound bright, harsh and edgy. When I put the Verdi in standby it was smooth and clean again. To further test this, I connected a stock RCA cable from the computer to the Verdi. There was horrible brightness! My system isn't grounded anywhere and the ground noise from the computer went through the RCA cable. I also tried to listen to the DSD upsampled computer signal through the Verdi... It got smoother but it was worse overall. Having the computer isolated from the audio system gave better sound even when using 44.1kHz and cheap Toslink. Conclusion: So, the 44.1kHz computer with Toslink sounds better to me than the 100 times more expensive dCS Verdi Encore with DSD upsampling. I also get the best sound with the Verdi turned off! Nobody wants to buy the Verdi from me now after this review, so I guess I'm going to keep it, it may come useful in the future somehow. I think I'm going to wrap the Firewire cables in ERS Paper to see if it makes a difference.

I can tell ya that my modded amp, hd 650 and source sounds much better then anything played on my computer! And i use expensive drives in my computer, like plextor.....On the other system i have good monitors but they are no match for my home rig!

Ever tried the dCS system without the filters and stuff?! Most high end systems have some kind of filtering inside the amp sections and don't benefit from expensive filtering! If you have first class powwersections in your exuipment, like ac and dc filtering, you don't need any powerfilter or powerplant! I found out they only take away quite some detail!

Just plug it straight in and listen...

To me, it sounds that you like some kind of coloration in the sound then pure clean sound...it can sound dull and boring, but it is the cleanest sound you'll ever get....

I also read a review from one that heard the complete system and he was blown away by it! He said you can easally pick out every player in a large orchestra(and i mean really large orchestra), not much systems can do that! It could be that the dCS system is limited by the headphone, since headphones are not that good in portraying large orchestra's etc........In this case, a good speaker setup might benefit more form the system/source then a headphone... really high end speaker system are way much better then any headphone i heard...But they cost ya a fortune!

You might wanna ask NIK (nikola), as he was thinking of upgrading to the complete dCS system a while ago, so he Might have heard it.......see what he thinks.....

 

[Patrick82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ever tried the dCS system without the filters and stuff?! Most high end systems have some kind of filtering inside the amp sections and don't benefit from expensive filtering! If you have first class powwersections in your exuipment, like ac and dc filtering, you don't need any powerfilter or powerplant! I found out they only take away quite some detail! Just plug it straight in and listen... To me, it sounds that you like some kind of coloration in the sound then pure clean sound...it can sound dull and boring, but it is the cleanest sound you'll ever get....

I have made a lot of experiments with power cords and power conditioning with the dCS rig. Nordost Valhalla power cord made it worse than stock power cable. But Virtual Dynamics Genesis 1.1 made it better in every way.

I also tried power conditioners. I added a Premier Power Plant and got more fullness and low-level detail, I added a Quintet power conditioner between the Premier and wall and got even more low-level detail. Bypassing the Premier (with two daisy chained Genesis) and plugging the dCS DAC into the Quintet gave edgier sound with less low-level detail. Both the Premier and Quintet need to be there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif I also read a review from one that heard the complete system and he was blown away by it! He said you can easally pick out every player in a large orchestra(and i mean really large orchestra), not much systems can do that! It could be that the dCS system is limited by the headphone, since headphones are not that good in portraying large orchestra's etc........

Yes, I think the K1000 are the weakness in my system because they sound too boomy and veiled. This also explains why I like to add jitter/edginess from the computer to compensate for it.

 

[Duggeh]

There isn't a picture I've been able to find which shows a man facepalming clean through his skull pushing his face out through the back of his head. I will endeavour though, to have one commissioned thus that it might be deployed in future for such threads as this.