[centurymantra]

[size=medium]I occasionally frequent another forum which generates quite a few very (as in VERY) heated threads debating the virtue or lack thereof with DBT testing as it relates to audio.  The views are pretty extreme, with a large and very vocal camp that pretty much, in essence,  claim all DACs, amplifiers, etc. sound the same and the only thing that makes any difference are speakers and room acoustics, which has been proved by DBT testing.  This of course creates much, umm, “lively” debate.  I have actually taken a lot of interest in reading through the threads as I’m a bit torn on the issue.  As much as I respect the concept and sort of want to believe in its absolute validity, I do still feel that the mere state of mind that one is in when doing such a test is a bit at odds with the state of awareness involved with listening to and enjoying music.[/size]
 
[size=medium]I really got to thinking about this recently while reading a book called “Blink:  The Power of Thinking Without Thinking”.  It is a bit of pop psychology text which discusses the notions of intuition, snap judgments and the way in which unconscious thought processes work and are influenced.  Some of his examples were quite analogous and relevant to DBT discussions.  One test that was discussed involved two groups of people tasting and rating jams in order of preference.  There was a group of food critic/tasting experts and a group of laymen off the street.  They both came up with fairly similar lists.  There were a few discrepancies like the top two picks being switched around and couple other small variants, but the ranking list looked quite similar.  As soon as they asked the group of laypeople to actually describe WHAT it was they preferred or did not, and not just say which one the liked the most, the list was completely changed – the top pick went practically went to the bottom amongst pretty much random results.  As soon as they stepped away from simply experiencing the taste sensation and needed to analytically describe what they were experiencing everything changed.  I think the same thing is bound to happen in DBT testing of audio which just so happens to involve another one of the senses – in this case hearing.  Listening to, enjoying and experiencing music is IMHO a bit at odds with the act of trying to analyze, scrutinize and determine if X is either A or B.  Just as the author of the above book argues that intuition, gut hunches, feelings and snap judgments can be valuable guiding lights – the same philosophy could be applied to discussion on DBT testing for audio. [/size]
 
 
[size=medium]One thing I have a problem with is that, if I’m not mistaken, most of the DBT crowd dismiss the validity of simple AB testing – listening to A and B and saying which you prefer.  I’d be ready to largely dismiss there being a significant difference in two components if you just bat 50/50 on choosing a favorite.  That being said, even then I do still feel there is room in certain cases to account for the fact that one source could just “feel” better and lead you to simply – and almost unconsciously – enjoy music more even if you couldn’t pick it out in a test.  An example I might cite is the case for uncompressed audio files vs. mp3s.   Granted, there is a point where the difference is quite slight but at least we could in this case (unlike with cables) conclusively determine that a 320kbps mp3 and an uncompressed WAV file are fundamentally different signals, so it would mainly come down to determining if it is a percievable difference.  Maybe you couldn’t pick it out in an AB test, let alone an ABX test, but I would propose that perhaps one would find themselves, while going about working in the kitchen, simply enjoying the tunes more, unconsciously tapping their toes and just “feeling” the music more – on a more unconscious, intuitive level.[/size]
 
[size=medium]At any rate, these are just a few rambling thoughts on the topic, - but I guess this thread will probably get banned pretty soon, eh?[/size]

 

[svyr]

>If I’m not mistaken, most of the DBT crowd dismiss the validity of simple AB testing – listening to A and B and saying which you prefer

I don't see why they would. Provided it's blind or double blind, I don't see why you can't A/B side by side or even more than once if that's the way you think YOU can/should be able to tell the difference (re: intuition). The cable tests papers I've seen let people do that, if I'm not mistaken (2 taped up cables, you can swap or do whatever with them, as long as you state what cable a and b you think are at the end (same, more , less expensive, etc)

 

[WrxSTI]

@Centurymantra: "[size=medium]Maybe you couldn’t pick it out in an AB test, let alone an ABX test, but I would propose that perhaps one would find themselves, while going about working in the kitchen, simply enjoying the tunes more, unconsciously tapping their toes and just “feeling” the music more – on a more unconscious, intuitive level."[/size]
 
[size=medium]I know I can't distinguish between 320 (and probably even 250) kbit mp3 and lossless, but knowing that the song is in FLAC makes me enjoy the song that tiny bit more simply because I know that the file is, in fact - lossless, and is the best possible version of that song I could hear. Listening to 320 kbit mp3 would, for all intents and purposes, be the same thing, but it would still probably slightly bother me because I know it's an MP3 - go figure.[/size]
 
[size=medium]For this same reason I also enjoy listening to 96 KHz and 192 KHz audio files more than 44.1 KHz, even though - when I resample them, they still sound the same. Then I end up having two parts in my mind - one telling me; see, you moron, you can't tell the difference! It's not superior to 44.1 KHz. Then the other side says, but this is sampled twice or several times as often, there must be some advantage to it...[/size]
 
And so forth. In the end, I subconsciously like files with a higher sample rate more, just like FLAC, and in the end it is making me enjoy music more. But the rational side of me realises that is in fact, after all placebo, but as long as it's not costing me anything, I don't mind.

The human mind is a tricky thing, I don't see anything wrong with indulging it sometimes for the heck of it.
 
That said, you won't catch me paying more than 5$ for a cable any day of the week.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

This is how I see the whole audiophile/audiophool debate (highly simplified)
 
1 - there are lots of credible reports of cables sounding different
 
2 - testing by various means from analogue to digital shows that there are some differences between cables
 
3 - ABX tests find that those differences are not audible
 
4 - there is evidence that placebo, pyschoacoustics and other 'in the mind' reasons explain why some people report hearing differences
 
5 - the reports of differences between cables are not an electrical property of the cable, they are in the listeners mind.

 

[svyr]

>makes me enjoy the song that tiny bit more simply because I know that the file is, in fact - lossless, and is the best possible version of that song I could hear.


the peace of mind argument ....juuust as long as we don't extrapolate it too far from lossless vs lossy, to $5000 power cables

 

[Nightslayer]

Quote:

[size=medium]I occasionally frequent another forum which generates quite a few very (as in VERY) heated threads debating the virtue or lack thereof with DBT testing as it relates to audio.  The views are pretty extreme, with a large and very vocal camp that pretty much, in essence,  claim all DACs, amplifiers, etc. sound the same and the only thing that makes any difference are speakers and room acoustics, which has been proved by DBT testing.  This of course creates much, umm, “lively” debate.  I have actually taken a lot of interest in reading through the threads as I’m a bit torn on the issue.  As much as I respect the concept and sort of want to believe in its absolute validity, I do still feel that the mere state of mind that one is in when doing such a test is a bit at odds with the state of awareness involved with listening to and enjoying music.[/size]
 
[size=medium]I really got to thinking about this recently while reading a book called “Blink:  The Power of Thinking Without Thinking”.  It is a bit of pop psychology text which discusses the notions of intuition, snap judgments and the way in which unconscious thought processes work and are influenced.  Some of his examples were quite analogous and relevant to DBT discussions.  One test that was discussed involved two groups of people tasting and rating jams in order of preference.  There was a group of food critic/tasting experts and a group of laymen off the street.  They both came up with fairly similar lists.  There were a few discrepancies like the top two picks being switched around and couple other small variants, but the ranking list looked quite similar.  As soon as they asked the group of laypeople to actually describe WHAT it was they preferred or did not, and not just say which one the liked the most, the list was completely changed – the top pick went practically went to the bottom amongst pretty much random results.  As soon as they stepped away from simply experiencing the taste sensation and needed to analytically describe what they were experiencing everything changed.  I think the same thing is bound to happen in DBT testing of audio which just so happens to involve another one of the senses – in this case hearing.  Listening to, enjoying and experiencing music is IMHO a bit at odds with the act of trying to analyze, scrutinize and determine if X is either A or B.  Just as the author of the above book argues that intuition, gut hunches, feelings and snap judgments can be valuable guiding lights – the same philosophy could be applied to discussion on DBT testing for audio. [/size]
 
 
[size=medium]One thing I have a problem with is that, if I’m not mistaken, most of the DBT crowd dismiss the validity of simple AB testing – listening to A and B and saying which you prefer.  I’d be ready to largely dismiss there being a significant difference in two components if you just bat 50/50 on choosing a favorite.  That being said, even then I do still feel there is room in certain cases to account for the fact that one source could just “feel” better and lead you to simply – and almost unconsciously – enjoy music more even if you couldn’t pick it out in a test.  An example I might cite is the case for uncompressed audio files vs. mp3s.   Granted, there is a point where the difference is quite slight but at least we could in this case (unlike with cables) conclusively determine that a 320kbps mp3 and an uncompressed WAV file are fundamentally different signals, so it would mainly come down to determining if it is a percievable difference.  Maybe you couldn’t pick it out in an AB test, let alone an ABX test, but I would propose that perhaps one would find themselves, while going about working in the kitchen, simply enjoying the tunes more, unconsciously tapping their toes and just “feeling” the music more – on a more unconscious, intuitive level.[/size]
 
[size=medium]At any rate, these are just a few rambling thoughts on the topic, - but I guess this thread will probably get banned pretty soon, eh?[/size]

This is exactly what I've been looking for, thanks very much for your input. Thing is, if you're unconsciously able to pick out which sounds better, shouldn't a DBT be able to reveal the exact same thing? In fact your arguments are very much in favour if DBTing in that when people allow expectations and pre-conceived notions to cloud their judgement they may not be as objective, nor pick the results which would actually bring them the greatest amount of utility. When you bring in A-B testing where the participants are told what it is they are A-Bing, biases can naturally be introduced due to the innate subjectivity of every human being brought up in today's society.
 
Just a short note but it is actually possible to pick out 320kbps MP3 from uncompressed files, you just have to know what to look for and use tracks where there are audible differences. I found one such passage in a the Imperial March from the Empire Strikes Back soundtrack, which allowed me to tell about 85% of the time which was the correct file being played. But fact of the matter is that these passages are rare and few between (I could only distinguish between the two in that particular 10-second window with the strings entry and winds entry sounding very slightly airier), and hence the majority of my music collection are in 320kbps because it allows me to stuff more on my iPod and only under the most stringent and critical of listening situations would I be able to tell (and enjoy) the difference between the two filetypes. Mastering also plays a part in rendering FLAC almost obsolete (where orchestral and jazz are not concerned) but I shall keep the discussion relevant and end here.
 
Why should the thread get banned, though? For all intents and purposes it is situated in the proper sub-forum, at the very least.

 

[jackmccabe]

dbt honestly has slightly ruined high end audio for me, but it has saved me a lot of money.
Recently I did a dbt with a few friends between a few dac's (Buffalo II, HLLY SMK-III , emu 0404 and on-board sound) and sadly the differences between them were tiny,
I imagine if a lot of people on head-fi actually performed a dbt with some of their equipment they would be sorely disappointed.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

dbt honestly has slightly ruined high end audio for me, but it has saved me a lot of money.
Recently I did a dbt with a few friends between a few dac's (Buffalo II, HLLY SMK-III , emu 0404 and on-board sound) and sadly the differences between them were tiny,
I imagine if a lot of people on head-fi actually performed a dbt with some of their equipment they would be sorely disappointed.

Can you post your method and results.
 

 

[jackmccabe]

It wasn't a particularly scientific test but the method was as follows.
The sources were my computer and a friends laptop, all the dac's were fed via coaxial.
Speakers: esl63 driven by beta24
headphones: w5000 driven by beta22
The on-board sound was from my p5k deluxe motherboard
We would hit play at approximately the same time so you could compare the same track side by side.
We used a 2 way switch connected to dac's pre out to change the source.
The Dac's were out of sight and we were able to change the source when we wanted.
the results were as follows:
 
I ranked them as following:
Buffalo II
emu 0404
Hlly smk-iii
on-board
 
Friend A:
Buffalo II
no preference between hlly smk-iii and emu 0404
on-board
 
Friend B:
No preference towards any
 
Friend C:
Could not decide between either Buffalo II, hlly smk-iii or emu 0404
On-board 
 
Although we all agreed that the differences were very small and generally the sound-stage was effected the most and there was a slight difference in treble quality.
 
 
 
 

 

[Willakan]

EDIT:Question was asking for results which were posted as I was writing the response 

 

[jackmccabe]

I really do hope more people start blind testing their equipment because of this thread, as I think most will find it quite a shocking experience.

 

[WrxSTI]

Quote:

I really do hope more people start blind testing their equipment because of this thread, as I think most will find it quite a shocking experience.

What exactly have you found in your DBT's? That it is pointless to buy expensive DAC's? Or amps? Or what?
 
Tell us, help us save money too...
 
(I'm not being sarcastic)

 

[jackmccabe]

Expensive dac's provide a very small difference and the money is much better spent on headphones or music.
 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

What exactly have you found in your DBT's? That it is pointless to buy expensive DAC's? Or amps? Or what?
 
Tell us, help us save money too...
 
(I'm not being sarcastic)

Answering for myself the benefits of blind testing are
 
1 - I have lost the desire to keep on upgrading, not only saving money, but also making me more satisfied my my system as it is, so enhancing my enjoyment of the music, rather than worrying I am not getting the best sound unless I have the latest DAC.
 
2 - I have saved money.
 
3 - I now spend money where it matters the most, on headphones (as speakers are the most easily identified in blind tests) and codecs/bit rates (as they too are relatively easily identified).
 
4 - All of my future hifi purchases will be on what functionality I need.
 
5 - Blind testing pokes huge holes in audiophile pseudeoscience, and since there is too much belief in pseudeoscience, that in itself is a good thing.

 

[WrxSTI]

And it's only when you come to a realisation such as this that you can truly enjoy music.
 
Get a quality 200-300$ DAC with all the features you need, try out a few headphones see what you like...spend the rest on tunes.
 
Which is what I'm planning to do to move the D/A conversion out of the noisy PC because I can't stand the interference (which is audible every time there is some more intensive CPU activity). And I want balanced outputs for my studio monitors.
 
Good job you two, for seeing the light.
 
I probably couldn't afford a $1000 DAC in the next few years (I'm in college) and not sure that I would want to...now that seems like jumping over the pond, AND keeping your money.