[Ezer]

My current setup is a Fubar II DAC > Audio Technica AT-HA20 > HD650. At this point, I knew the HD650s were being held back by both the source and amp, and was planning an upgrade to a Zhaolu 2.5 > Gilmore Lite w/DPS. Then I took a step back and thought: this is going to cost me at least $750, probably more after customs decides to ream me...

The Benchmark DAC1 and Lavry DA10, DACs that I've had my eye on since they were first discussed on head-fi, both cost around $975. I'm also going to assume that they can do a decent job of driving the HD650s; maybe not as good as a $500 dedicated amp, but better than anything < $200 (which describes my current amp). So should I just save an extra $300 and go for my dream DAC or take it slowly with cheaper dac and seperate headphone amp? My setup will always be used in conjunction with a computer, if that's anything to consider.

 

[tako_tsubo]

I was in the same boat, Ezer. I have a Beresford tc7510 paired with the SB3 and felt it could improve...so I waited and a used Lavry DA10 showed up! Its HP out has been described as similar to the gilmore lite and was described as such by the previous headfier that I got it from. The lavry HP out is better than using my Xenos portable amp, using my Ultrasones.

 

[Herandu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tako_tsubo /img/forum/go_quote.gif I was in the same boat, Ezer. I have a Beresford tc7510 paired with the SB3 and felt it could improve..

Have you considered trying out the Beresford mod tako?

 

[CarbonTi]

My main headphone is the HD600 which is similar to your HD650 as far as the requirements to adequately drive the cans.If you try to drive the cans from the single-ended output of either the Lavry or the Benchmark, the sound will have the bass and the dynamics removed. There is not enough drive from the 1/4" phone plug output to make the Senns come alive musically.

But there is hope because if you drive the Senns in balanced mode from the XLR outputs, it is pretty good. IMO balanced Senns driven by XLR from a Lavry or Benchmark are as good as the sound of Senns unbalanced with many lower tier single-ended headphone amps. I have used Senns with XLRs and a Lavry in this way before getting a balanced HP amp.

Recable the Senns XLR and use a Lavry/Benchmark. You will nave a upper tier source with an upgrade path in that you can later add a balanced HP amp.

 

[luidge]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarbonTi /img/forum/go_quote.gif My main headphone is the HD600 which is similar to your HD650 as far as the requirements to adequately drive the cans.If you try to drive the cans from the single-ended output of either the Lavry or the Benchmark, the sound will have the bass and the dynamics removed. There is not enough drive from the 1/4" phone plug output to make the Senns come alive musically. But there is hope because if you drive the Senns in balanced mode from the XLR outputs, it is pretty good. IMO balanced Senns driven by XLR from a Lavry or Benchmark are as good as the sound of Senns unbalanced with many lower tier single-ended headphone amps. I have used Senns with XLRs and a Lavry in this way before getting a balanced HP amp. Recable the Senns XLR and use a Lavry/Benchmark. You will nave a upper tier source with an upgrade path in that you can later add a balanced HP amp.

That's exactly the route i have taken, still waiting for some adapter and XLR connectors but i am already pretty happy with my DA10 through the 1/4 out. Not juicy ennuf but doesn't sound bad at all. The balanced output are really interesting as you upgrade. If i know in the beggining that i would go balanced i would have bought a DA10 at first or a DAC1.

 

[pageman99]

As one who has been down the Senn 650 upgrade path using little steps, I would wholeheartedly agree with the choice you've made.

The Senns just don't sing unless they're balanced IMO. Now you're have a nice sounding setup with a clear path to top notch audio. Any single ended upgrade just results in frustration IME.

Good choice and one I would highly recommend to anyone who loves Senns.

 

[slwiser]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarbonTi /img/forum/go_quote.gif My main headphone is the HD600 which is similar to your HD650 as far as the requirements to adequately drive the cans.If you try to drive the cans from the single-ended output of either the Lavry or the Benchmark, the sound will have the bass and the dynamics removed. There is not enough drive from the 1/4" phone plug output to make the Senns come alive musically. But there is hope because if you drive the Senns in balanced mode from the XLR outputs, it is pretty good. IMO balanced Senns driven by XLR from a Lavry or Benchmark are as good as the sound of Senns unbalanced with many lower tier single-ended headphone amps. I have used Senns with XLRs and a Lavry in this way before getting a balanced HP amp. Recable the Senns XLR and use a Lavry/Benchmark. You will nave a upper tier source with an upgrade path in that you can later add a balanced HP amp.

Good suggestion. The Apogee miniDAC is also known as having a very good synergy going balanced into the HD600 and 650s.

 

[Ezer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarbonTi /img/forum/go_quote.gif My main headphone is the HD600 which is similar to your HD650 as far as the requirements to adequately drive the cans.If you try to drive the cans from the single-ended output of either the Lavry or the Benchmark, the sound will have the bass and the dynamics removed. There is not enough drive from the 1/4" phone plug output to make the Senns come alive musically. But there is hope because if you drive the Senns in balanced mode from the XLR outputs, it is pretty good. IMO balanced Senns driven by XLR from a Lavry or Benchmark are as good as the sound of Senns unbalanced with many lower tier single-ended headphone amps. I have used Senns with XLRs and a Lavry in this way before getting a balanced HP amp. Recable the Senns XLR and use a Lavry/Benchmark. You will nave a upper tier source with an upgrade path in that you can later add a balanced HP amp.

I think I've read about Senn XLR > Lavry in another thread before. The DA10/DAC1 balanced outputs are male correct? And supposedly ordering a Zu/Equinox/etc cable terminated in female XLR lowers the possible resale value as well. So what people end up doing is getting their cables terminated in male XLR > male to female XLR adaptor > male XLR in the DA10/DAC1 right?

Do you guys think the extra adaptor part of the equation might compromise the sound quality? I'm not very knowledgable on the finer details of cables/interconnects. On the other hand, I'm also guessing that a majority of balanced amps utilize female XLR outputs, so having your cables terminated as male XLR results in a bit of future proofing should you decide to upgrade to balanced amps later?

 

[CarbonTi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ezer /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think I've read about Senn XLR > Lavry in another thread before. The DA10/DAC1 balanced outputs are male correct? And supposedly ordering a Zu/Equinox/etc cable terminated in female XLR lowers the possible resale value as well. So what people end up doing is getting their cables terminated in male XLR > male to female XLR adaptor > male XLR in the DA10/DAC1 right? Do you guys think the extra adaptor part of the equation might compromise the sound quality? I'm not very knowledgable on the finer details of cables/interconnects. On the other hand, I'm also guessing that a majority of balanced amps utilize female XLR outputs, so having your cables terminated as male XLR results in a bit of future proofing should you decide to upgrade to balanced amps later?

Yeah, one of the oddities of the balance hp world that outputs are terminated with male XLRs on the headphone (the convention is a device accepting output is XLR female).

You can save money by simply buying a replacement HD650 cable from Sennheiser and reterminate with Neutrik male XLRs. If you splurge for an aftermarket cable stick with male XLRs also to avoid cable resale suicide.

In any case, to retain future compatability with balanced hp amps, terminate the cable in XLR male and use a Female-Female adapter to hook up to the XLR outputs in a Lavry/Benchmark. Using the adapter is just for your interim use before eventually obtaining a balanced hp amp and there is no effect on the sound that I can hear. Any theoretical degradation in SQ is easily overcome by the improvement in running the cans balanced.

Sounds like you're on the right track to me.

 

[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pageman99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Senns just don't sing unless they're balanced IMO. Now you're have a nice sounding setup with a clear path to top notch audio. Any single ended upgrade just results in frustration IME.

not necessarily true. If you put gobs of power behind senns, even SE can bring out 98% of the senns compared to the balanced.

The percentage is just for illustrative purpose and is not substantive in nature.

 

[n4k33n]

^ Yeah, Like a 3 channel b22 single ended. This will be my next upgrade. Balanced seems, dunno, excessive?

 

[euclid]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif not necessarily true. If you put gobs of power behind senns, even SE can bring out 98% of the senns compared to the balanced. The percentage is just for illustrative purpose and is not substantive in nature.

i agree, IMHO single ended does some things better than balanced as well.

 

[pianomav]

I would advise that you save up and go for your dream DAC. I wish I had, It would have saved me quite some $$$. I started with a StelloDac which is really good but decided that I want to go balanced so I sold that dac and went for the DAC1.

 

[datura647]

Isn't it true that a balanced source isn't necessary to get all the benefits from balanced drive? What I mean is some balanced headphone amps convert a non balanced input signal to a fully balanced output to the headphones (such as the Rudistor NX-33). So maybe it would be a better option to go for a nice balanced amp, then maybe later go for the DAC-1 or DA10?

 

[infinitesymphony]

Quote:

Originally Posted by datura647 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Isn't it true that a balanced source isn't necessary to get all the benefits from balanced drive?

No... If one device in the chain is unbalanced, then essentially the whole system is unbalanced; it's only as good as the weakest link. At least, that's my understanding of it.