[oqvist]

I am curious to know exactly what audioGD means with musical vs their neutral line?
 
Would these dacs complement eachother or just being different versions of the same DAC?
I am mostly listening to the LCD-2 these days so if anyone has this headphone and these two dacs it would be extra helpful.
 
If anyone found another DAC that go well along the DAC19 I would be interested to hear it as well.
 
What I gathered so far the DAC3SE is warmer but has less bass and slightly rolled off treble. If so I am looking for something else then the DAC3SE entirely.

 

[realmassy]

Out of curiosity, how does the Keces 131 mk 2 compare to the DAC19? Thanks

 

[oqvist]

Will come back to you in some weeks. Have used the DAC19 almost exclusively as of late.

 

[CountChoculaBot]

Hi,

I'm trying to decide between the DAC19 that you stock and the DAC3SE.  In your water cooler review you say that you would recommend the DAC3SE instead of the DAC19DSP if I were in that price range.  If that's the case, could you describe the basic differences between the two DACs and what makes you recommend the DAC3SE over the DAC19?  Especially with regards to the following:

Vocal Realism
DAC 19 - vocals are dynamic and out in front.
3SE - laid back, and warm.
Correct tonality
-The DAC 19
Musicality/"Fun-ness"
The DAC 19 dynamic, the 3SE, warm
Anything else prudent that I'd miss

Oh, and would you say that the DAC3SE is just a higher level of DAC than the DAC19?  No, its a different sounding DAC.  The DSP, we felt, made it more like the 3SE (much warmer) if you want warm, go woth the 3se.  If you want Dynamic, go with the 19
 
 
 
 
 

---

 
From an email to Pvalve when I was in ur situation.  However, user input here tends to be different and more in favor of the DAC3SE, such as how the vocal's sound much more realistic.  Because of that, I myself am really strongly considering a Reference 8.

 

[oqvist]

Thanks really helps.Interesting that DSP make it so much warmer. I suppose you can´t remove the DSP module?
 
Seeing most headphones have tipped treble and most have problems with getting sufficient bass out of those tiny drivers without drowning the mid range the DAC3SE is perhaps optimized to suit such headphones? Thinking of headphones like the T1 to take another "reference" headphone like the LCD-2.
 
I am listening to some classic fm voices 2008 album and I just can´t picture how the DAC19 DSP/LCD-2 combo can be improved with realism as goal. The only fatigue you possible get is due to the massive amount of detail and how it can accurately reproduce the entire choir.
 
as for the Keces I don´t know what happened but I get no sound of it all of a sudden! Gonna have to check optical when I get back my PS 3.

 

[oqvist]

Got my Keces going. It´s a really nice complement to the DAC19. Shorter decays, more treble, less sub bass but hardly noticable seeing how strong the LCD-2 is there. It´s "faster and more lively" with tons of PRaT. Not quite as mid centric as the DAC19 and not nearly as detailed and brighter overall. Not nearly as refined as the 19 more distortion and not as realistic tone but it has the drive in the mid bass and a livelier treble that I sometimes miss on the LCD-2 for more dramatic scores or simple pop like madonna. I do get more engaged with the music then with the DAC19/GHP which is sometimes for some genres to much neutrality I feel.
 
But it´s a second flavour. After I get my HA160 I will focus more on equalizing the DAC19 and see what that brings

 
 

 

[slim.a]

Quote:

Got my Keces going. It´s a really nice complement to the DAC19. Shorter decays, more treble, less sub bass but hardly noticable seeing how strong the LCD-2 is there. It´s "faster and more lively" with tons of PRaT. Not quite as mid centric as the DAC19 and not nearly as detailed and brighter overall. Not nearly as refined as the 19 more distortion and not as realistic tone but it has the drive in the mid bass and a livelier treble that I sometimes miss on the LCD-2 for more dramatic scores or simple pop like madonna. I do get more engaged with the music then with the DAC19/GHP which is sometimes for some genres to much neutrality I feel.
 
But it´s a second flavour. After I get my HA160 I will focus more on equalizing the DAC19 and see what that brings

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I will be interested in getting your impressions on the dac19+HA160+LCD2
 

 

[shogo33]

"Vocal Realism
DAC 19 - vocals are dynamic and out in front.
3SE - laid back, and warm.
Correct tonality
-The DAC 19
Musicality/"Fun-ness"
The DAC 19 dynamic, the 3SE, warm
Anything else prudent that I'd miss

Oh, and would you say that the DAC3SE is just a higher level of DAC than the DAC19?  No, its a different sounding DAC.  The DSP, we felt, made it more like the 3SE (much warmer) if you want warm, go woth the 3se.  If you want Dynamic, go with the 19"
 
 
Yes they sound different, but they are 'voiced' differently.  They are built differently and the 3SE is a heaftier build, and much better components than the 19.  A lot of user assumption's here is that the 3SE is 'laid back' which may be interpreted as being 'sluggish' with rolled off highs.  I can say that its far from being sluggish, bloated etc. 
 
Yes, it is a warmer sounding dac than the 19 but on a scale of 1 to 10 where 5 is neutral and 10 is very warm, i would say that it sits on the 6.5 mark. But in a correctly voiced setup, it can take away that harsh clinical sound of some music or badly mastered cd's. 
 
Bass is fantastic and is much more 'palpable' for a better word.  Also, depending oi n the digital filter used, PMD100/200 or DF1704, the PMD has a slight roll-off but the DF1704 (stock install) doesnt.  I have a PMD100 in mine, but i dont notice that roll off at all.  
 
I have recently listened to a 19DSP dac and can say that the sound is 'closer' to a 3SE but has no where near the 'weight' and presence of the 3SE, especially with vocals. 

 

[slim.a]

Quote:

Yes they sound different, but they are 'voiced' differently.  They are built differently and the 3SE is a heaftier build, and much better components than the 19.  A lot of user assumption's here is that the 3SE is 'laid back' which may be interpreted as being 'sluggish' with rolled off highs.  I can say that its far from being sluggish, bloated etc. 

 
While I agree that the 3SE is more massively built, it is false to say that the 3SE uses better components. Both units use the same capacitors, resitors, dac chips... The only difference is that the 3SE has more of them especially in the power supply region. The bigger build and bigger power supply make the 3SE less suceptible to external factors (quality of the power supply and vibration).
 
Quote:

Yes, it is a warmer sounding dac than the 19 but on a scale of 1 to 10 where 5 is neutral and 10 is very warm, i would say that it sits on the 6.5 mark. But in a correctly voiced setup, it can take away that harsh clinical sound of some music or badly mastered cd's. 
 
Bass is fantastic and is much more 'palpable' for a better word.  Also, depending oi n the digital filter used, PMD100/200 or DF1704, the PMD has a slight roll-off but the DF1704 (stock install) doesnt.  I have a PMD100 in mine, but i dont notice that roll off at all.  
 
I have recently listened to a 19DSP dac and can say that the sound is 'closer' to a 3SE but has no where near the 'weight' and presence of the 3SE, especially with vocals. 

 
The PMD100 is colored whether compared to the DF1704 or the DSP-1. The PMD100 is excellent on HDCD recordings but it clearly missing some upper harmonics information on regular CDs.
The DSP-1 is a more neutral and complete digital filter.
The PMD100 (at least the way Audio-gd makes them) sounds weighty and is excellent with vocals. It is definitely "musical" sounding.
Regarding the dac19dsp, and as I have said it on my review of that specific dac, it really requires good power filtration to give its best. With the proper "tweaks", the bass can extend much lower, the soundtage can become bigger and more defined and the resolution can increase. So the fact that you heard a weightier representation with the 3SE is no surprise.
 
Overall, I personally think that the DAC should be kept as neutral as possible and leave the "coloration" for amps and/or headphone. Given that I have spent months listening to PMD100 vs. DF1704 and later on vs. DSP-1, I find that the "distortions" provided by the PMD100 and DF1704 filters are more objectionable than those provided by a headphone amp for example.
 
Given what I have read so far, the dac3se would seem to provide mainly a shift in the representation (and a slight increase in perf) over the dac19dsp. The Ref9 on the other hand might provide the best of both worlds: a neutral DSP-1 digital filter and a "musical" diamond output stage.

 

[oqvist]

 
Quote:

"Vocal Realism
DAC 19 - vocals are dynamic and out in front.
3SE - laid back, and warm.
Correct tonality
-The DAC 19
Musicality/"Fun-ness"
The DAC 19 dynamic, the 3SE, warm
Anything else prudent that I'd miss

Oh, and would you say that the DAC3SE is just a higher level of DAC than the DAC19?  No, its a different sounding DAC.  The DSP, we felt, made it more like the 3SE (much warmer) if you want warm, go woth the 3se.  If you want Dynamic, go with the 19"
 
 
Yes they sound different, but they are 'voiced' differently.  They are built differently and the 3SE is a heaftier build, and much better components than the 19.  A lot of user assumption's here is that the 3SE is 'laid back' which may be interpreted as being 'sluggish' with rolled off highs.  I can say that its far from being sluggish, bloated etc. 
 
Yes, it is a warmer sounding dac than the 19 but on a scale of 1 to 10 where 5 is neutral and 10 is very warm, i would say that it sits on the 6.5 mark. But in a correctly voiced setup, it can take away that harsh clinical sound of some music or badly mastered cd's. 
 
Bass is fantastic and is much more 'palpable' for a better word.  Also, depending oi n the digital filter used, PMD100/200 or DF1704, the PMD has a slight roll-off but the DF1704 (stock install) doesnt.  I have a PMD100 in mine, but i dont notice that roll off at all.  
 
I have recently listened to a 19DSP dac and can say that the sound is 'closer' to a 3SE but has no where near the 'weight' and presence of the 3SE, especially with vocals. 

From my reference points the DAC3SE looks like a horrible match for the LCD-2. If there is a point where the LCD-2 aren´t lacking it´s in the weight for bass/mid range. If it´s able to push voices more forward in the soundstage that would be superb though. Otherwise I find the bass overwhelming for a headhone like the DX 1000 at times. LCD-2 surely can get heated by the massive bass response of the DAC19. If the DAC3SE has more I wonder if it wouldn´t be to much? 
Anyway hearing is believing. if anyone EU-based have a DAC3SE or any other in Audio GDs "musical line" and want to hear a DAC19 or something let me know

 

 

[tim3320070]

Wow, guys, the "warm" dac's are warm only in relation to the ACSS dac's. You all are putting too much into these terms. The musical dac's are very transparent- no mid/bass bloom or anything like that AT ALL. You all make them sound like they are tube dac's or something- wrong. Read more of the 3SE thread and my comparison of the Ref1/Ref8. Kingwa does not stray much from dead neutral in any equipment- a tick or two in either direction (even that does not describe it well enough).
I found the extra power regulation and transformers adds soundstage width and blacker background (at least as compared to the Roc and Phoenix amps). They ain't in there for looks.

 

[Audio Bling]

Quote:

[..]
Regarding the dac19dsp, and as I have said it on my review of that specific dac, it really requires good power filtration to give its best. With the proper "tweaks", the bass can extend much lower, the soundtage can become bigger and more defined and the resolution can increase.
[..]

[size=10pt]Yes, I agree.. I was doing some listening yesterday and discovered (to my surprise) just how sensitive the DAC-19DSP is to its power source. I had simply traded out my hovland ac power cable for an oyaide tunami gpx and discovered a whole new presentation. Resolution improved to the degree that I changed my preference for PLL setting (now back to default). I am also thinking that the Audio-gd power outlet/filter might be a very good thing with the DAC-19.[/size]
 
Quote:

[..]
Overall, I personally think that the DAC should be kept as neutral as possible and leave the "coloration" for amps and/or headphone.
[..]

[size=10pt]I think this is Kingwa's opinion too. Makes sense in a way: do the "colouring", if required, with the [size=10pt]ancillaries [/size]such as cables etc. rather than the component itself. But then again, if this is so then why make a range of non-neutral components? So clearly, this is not the "whole answer".[/size]
Quote:

[..]
The Ref9 on the other hand might provide the best of both worlds: a neutral DSP-1 digital filter and a "musical" diamond output stage.
[..]

[size=10pt]So you are saying that the Ref9 is your “tip” for SE playback..[/size]

 

[slim.a]

Quote:

[size=10pt]Yes, I agree.. I was doing some listening yesterday and discovered (to my surprise) just how sensitive the DAC-19DSP is to its power source. I had simply traded out my hovland ac power cable for an oyaide tunami gpx and discovered a whole new presentation. Resolution improved to the degree that I changed my preference for PLL setting (now back to default). I am also thinking that the Audio-gd power outlet/filter might be a very good thing with the DAC-19.[/size]
 

I am glad you tried changing power cords. Your findings are pretty much what I described on the other thread. The DAC19DSP is indeed very sensitive to the power filtration, even more so than the C2 preamp/headamp.
I am currently using Hifi Cables PowertransPlus power cords but I feel that the combo work best when the dac19 is plugged in the filtered socket of my Bada power filter while the c2 is plugged in the unfiltered socket. Going from the "unfiltered" to the "filtered" one, I notice a drop in the perceived noise floor (or a blacker background), an increase in resolution and more diversified and truthfull tone. With the filtered dac19dsp, every microdynamics increase as well as macrodynamics. Overall, the change is bigger than from what you would expect from a change in component.
If you look at the higher end models from audio-gd, what you gain is mostly more power filtration (the components used are basically the same). When using external power filtration, we are just doing outside what is being done internally in the higher end models (in the power supply section).
Regarding the Audio-gd power filter, I ordered one a few weeks ago but then cancelled my order because: 1. I already have a good power filter and 2. because he is selling the filter with US plugs while all my equipment/power cords use european schucko plugs. I will wait until they release a model with euro plugs to place my order. I wish though that I could have compared it to my bada filter.
 
Quote:

[size=10pt]I think this is Kingwa's opinion too. Makes sense in a way: do the "colouring", if required, with the [size=10pt]ancillaries [/size]such as cables etc. rather than the component itself. But then again, if this is so then why make a range of non-neutral components? So clearly, this is not the "whole answer".[/size]
 

I think that it depends on which step you are in building your system. If someone is building their system from scratch, it is perhaps best to start with a "neutral" DAC. However, if someone has has already invested (and don't intend to upgrade) in amps and headphones/speakers, then it might make sense to get one of the "coloured" DACs.
Obviously, his "musical" dacs are not overly coloured. From what I have read they are slightly sweet and are very natural sounding. Perhaps not as "faithfull" to the recording as the "neutral" ones, but natural sounding nonetheless.
 
Quote:

[size=10pt]So you are saying that the Ref9 is your “tip” for SE playback..[/size]

 
Since I have listened to neither the 3SE nor the Ref9, I am only speculating.
My future upgrade path in the next months is as follow:
1. Get the LCD2 (still on the waiting list)
2. Get a proper amp for the LCD2
3. Upgrade the DAC
Because I intend to keep my chain SE, and depending on how the LCD2 will sound to me, I might get the Ref9 because it is, in my personal opinion, the only SE DAC that can be considered as "objectively" superior the dac19dsp.
 
When I had the dac19mk3 with both PMD100 and DF1704, I couldn't get satisfied with either one and kept switching from one another. Now that I got the dac19dsp, I just don't feel that the DAC has an objectionable sonic signature anymore. When I leave the DSP-1 in its stock settings, the DAC19 is pretty much transparent and I can forget it is there. Switching from the C2 to the ST-3 to the LD MKIII headamps with my recabled ALO T1s, I get a totally different presentation each time.
When I was still using the PMD100 and DF1704 filters, there was a (slight) sonic signature that was there regardless of the recording/headphone amp/headphone. The DSP-1 filter does the job best by being sonically "transparent". That makes in my book the Ref-9 (DSP-1 + Diamond output) a real winner.
 
Of course all of us have different perceptions and we put different emphasis on different areas of the music reproduction. So to answer your question, yes, the Ref9 is my "tip" but it is a subjective one

 

[haloxt]

oqvist, I would recommend making sure every cable in your audio chain is proper gauge before going from dac19dsp to dac3se. It doesn't have to be expensive either, I have made a lot of $1-15 thick gauge cables and even found some proper gauge stock cables (ok this is rare though

). I think 11-14 awg is okay for power cables, 21-24 awg okay for interconnects and headphone cables. Imo, purity, shielding/geometry, and silver vs copper, are secondary in importance to length and gauge, at least when we're talking about thin long stock cables vs proper gauge cables.
 
Don't want to argue with people asking for proof of audible cable differences and don't want to argue with people who think length and gauge aren't the most important criterions, just trying to give cheap and easy advice to ensure thin long stock cables aren't what is making the OP want to upgrade.
 
After you have all decent cables, I would recommend listening to music at 2 AM and seeing what degree the sound improves versus during the day. If it is big or much to your liking, consider a power conditioner, but first make sure your power cables are 14 awg or thicker and not too long.

 

[oqvist]

If the differences are that small I won´t bother!
 
I do have some mega stiff bulky furukawa copper  power cable and some supra lorad conditioner and other stuff I can test with. I want a bigger change then that if I am going to get another DAC.