Dac or Amp ?

[Tomy10]

Hello Everyone!
First post here

I just got today my first pair of audiophile Headphones! the HD660s I am so impressed so far, specially some songs that are well recorded shine on this cans! so happy with my purchase!

I wanted to get an JDS labs Atom Amp + Dac stack. but I don't have the budget to buy both at the same time for now. I can buy one now and the other later this year.
So I wanted to ask what should I buy first to make the best improvement to my HD660s? the amp or the dac?
I listen from a Lenovo Legion Laptop. From my listening today I have absolutely no volume problems, i think I am at 40% on windows, so no problem there, i get super loud. I am listening with the apple dongle Usb-c. because I noticed that even though is a bit lower the volume, the details and quality of the sound is considerably better than directly from the Headphone jack.

What are your thoughts?

Alternatively I could just get an FiiO k5 pro ESS that is already an Amp and dac. But I think I prefer the Atom from all thre wonderful things I have heard from JDS labs

Thank you so much!

 

[pbui44]

You will hear more of an improvement from an amp than a DAC, so you can just get an amp now and DAC later. I own a JDS Atom amp and it sounds great with IEMs and easier-driven dynamics, but I assume that your HD660S already came with a 4.4mm balanced cable, so you can just get this Sabaj A20h to get even more amp power for your dollar:

https://www.amazon.com/Desktop-Balance-Headphone-Amplifier-Balanced/dp/B097BVP4S9

 

[earmonger]

The Apple dongle is a DAC. That's why it's changing (and apparently improving) the sound.

 

[m-i-c-k-e-y]

I suggest have more patience, save more and get what you want. Than buy now for something in the middle and compromise. Most you will end up NOT you intend to be at the beginning.

 

[IkSak]

Welcome to the hobby!

Right now you’ll have significant more benefit from an amplifier.

May I suggest a Schiit Magni 3? It’s a great starting amp that will drive most headphones

 

[earmonger]

With a tight budget, you should also consider the VE Megatron DAC/Amp if they will ship to you (from China). Only $50 plus shipping.
https://www.veclan.com/engappliance_sel_one?eng_ApplianceVo.eac_id=63

It's a powerful DAC/Amp with good measurements and a 4.4 balanced jack (along with 3.5mm).

Look at the "Reviews" tab partway down that page for more info.

 

[o0genesis0o]

Hello Everyone!
First post here

I just got today my first pair of audiophile Headphones! the HD660s I am so impressed so far, specially some songs that are well recorded shine on this cans! so happy with my purchase!

I wanted to get an JDS labs Atom Amp + Dac stack. but I don't have the budget to buy both at the same time for now. I can buy one now and the other later this year.
So I wanted to ask what should I buy first to make the best improvement to my HD660s? the amp or the dac?
I listen from a Lenovo Legion Laptop. From my listening today I have absolutely no volume problems, i think I am at 40% on windows, so no problem there, i get super loud. I am listening with the apple dongle Usb-c. because I noticed that even though is a bit lower the volume, the details and quality of the sound is considerably better than directly from the Headphone jack.

What are your thoughts?

Alternatively I could just get an FiiO k5 pro ESS that is already an Amp and dac. But I think I prefer the Atom from all thre wonderful things I have heard from JDS labs

Thank you so much!

Amp first.

Apple dongle has great DAC inside, just not powerful amp. I have great success pairing it with a standalone amp to make a nice and affordable portable setup that sounds better than most dongles.

The VE megatron is also an interesting option. It is designed especially for high impedance gear like HD660S, so you can use it immediately. After buying an amp, you can use Megatron as a pure DAC.

Edit: getting loud is not a problem. How dynamic and snappy the sound can be is the problem that amp can solve. A good test is get some music with crisp, snappy bass line, and pay a lot of attention to the attack of bass notes. That’s the indicator, but not the only improvement that an amp can bring to your setup.

 

[ZCrow]

You will hear more of an improvement from an amp than a DAC, so you can just get an amp now and DAC later. I own a JDS Atom amp and it sounds great with IEMs and easier-driven dynamics, but I assume that your HD660S already came with a 4.4mm balanced cable, so you can just get this Sabaj A20h to get even more amp power for your dollar:

https://www.amazon.com/Desktop-Balance-Headphone-Amplifier-Balanced/dp/B097BVP4S9

This all day ^^^

The order of importance for your sound will always be headphones > amp > DAC > music format

You could argue that music format matters more than either the amp or DAC but that would only be if you are streaming or playing low quality recordings. Honestly, I don't think anyone benefits from any recordings higher than CD quality. The potential difference in quality for HD recordings, etc. is more placebo then reality.

Any if someone starts talking cables, just don't. Cables only lead to discussions of snake oil.

 

[tomb]

I suggest have more patience, save more and get what you want. Than buy now for something in the middle and compromise. Most you will end up NOT you intend to be at the beginning.

^ This ...

I agree with many of the comments that an Amp is needed. However, you have direct proof that a DAC also makes a difference. As earmonger stated above, your Apple dongle is simply an external DAC and you stated easily being able to notice the improvement.

<snip>

Edit: getting loud is not a problem. How dynamic and snappy the sound can be is the problem that amp can solve. A good test is get some music with crisp, snappy bass line, and pay a lot of attention to the attack of bass notes. That’s the indicator, but not the only improvement that an amp can bring to your setup. </snip>

^ This is also correct.

Everyone references loudness, but that's the least an amplifier can do. A proper match between headphone and amplifier (what occupies most of Head-Fi discussions) will result in the headphone's drivers being controlled during all aspects of the listening experience. This "control" goes way beyond simple loudness and can mean the difference between musicality and dead, monotonous sound.

Both is the correct answer.

 

[o0genesis0o]

^ This ...

I agree with many of the comments that an Amp is needed. However, you have direct proof that a DAC also makes a difference. As earmonger stated above, your Apple dongle is simply an external DAC and you stated easily being able to notice the improvement.


^ This is also correct.

Everyone references loudness, but that's the least an amplifier can do. A proper match between headphone and amplifier (what occupies most of Head-Fi discussions) will result in the headphone's drivers being controlled during all aspects of the listening experience. This "control" goes way beyond simple loudness and can mean the difference between musicality and dead, monotonous sound.

Both is the correct answer.

Out of curiosity, is there any measurements indicating that “control”? It drives the measurebator in my nut that I can’t find anything on the spec sheet that can predict whether an amp or DAP can offer that sound that I want or not. I don’t think max power nor SINAD the answer here.

 

[D3an Robin]

I suggest have more patience, save more and get what you want. Than buy now for something in the middle and compromise. Most you will end up NOT you intend to be at the beginning.

I second this. Buy once cry once.

 

[tomb]

Out of curiosity, is there any measurements indicating that “control”? It drives the measurebator in my nut that I can’t find anything on the spec sheet that can predict whether an amp or DAP can offer that sound that I want or not. I don’t think max power nor SINAD the answer here.

People like to believe otherwise, but what we can measure compared to what the human ear can hear is very small.

Square wave analysis may come closest. "Zooming" in on the corners can reveal breakup or oscillation (ringing), but there is no definite standard with measuring this, only comparative analysis with known high-performing headphones. Certainly, if the square wave is obviously distorted, once can deduce that little control is in effect. If the distortions are small, it becomes more difficult. A square wave measurement is also frequency dependent. Reproducing that square wave response and measuring for every frequency in the 20-20kHz band is impractical. Assumptions and best guesses (from experience) are used to maybe pick 2 or 3 frequencies to measure with square waves.

You can also use a singularity frequency burst to specifically measure the ringing in a headphone driver. Once again, this becomes so complicated for the entire frequency spectrum that a best guess of optimum frequencies is often employed, instead of attempting to measure throughout the 20-20kHz band.

Tyll Hertsens used to do these sorts of tests and built a database of his results. I'm not certain if Jude is doing this or not. I haven't really looked. In any event, you won't see this sort of stuff in typical specs. However, once you attain a certain threshold of adequate frequency response, signal-to-noise, and low-level distortion, this "control" means everything for the quality of the musical experience received.

Impedance matching is another quantity used to try to put the amplifier-headphone combination in the best impedance matchup regime. It's also relatively easy to measure, compared to the above. Another term for this is damping factor. Damping factor has long been a sought-after spec for speaker amps, but not so much for headphones. In the last few years, though, much more emphasis has arisen on the comparative low output impedance desired for the amplifier, relative to the higher impedance of the headphone. All this means is that the amplifier's output impedance needs to be favorable compared to the load impedance. Otherwise, its power is wasted driving the headphone.* Amplifier output impedance or damping factor (using a specific load impedance) is not a specific test for driver control, but it puts the amplifier-headphone matchup in the best position to make it happen, if possible.

* If you're familiar with vector analysis, current and voltage make up a vector that determines power. Impedance is the slope. If that slope is way off relative to the impedance of the driven load, most of that power is wasted - eg., a powerful amplifier with the wrong impedance match for the headphone means a lot of that power is for naught. (It's obviously more complicated than that and I may be messing up with technicalities, but hopefully, you get a sense of what I'm trying to say.)

 

[DenverW]

I might be missing something, but how would a dac from the pc help with no amp to output it to? A great little dac like the sdac has no headphone outs…?

 

[earmonger]

What SDAC are you talking about?

If you're talking about the MassDrop / Drop Grace SDAC, it has a headphone jack and balanced XLR jacks in the back.
https://headphones.com/blogs/reviews/massdrop-x-grace-sdac-balanced-review

The Massdrop O2 SDAC has a headphone jack in the front.

A DAC has to have some kind of output.

 

[tesarpa]

Naturally, all DACs have analog output, but only few can drive headphones without amplifier. So usually we talk about pure DAC (no headphones jack, no volume control) or DAC/Amp combos, all in ones.