[ReverbLikeACave]

I saw a couple similar threads, but none that matched my use-case/specifications exactly, hope you guys don't mind. I need a recommendation for a good Amp and Dac or combo of the two to work with a pair of HD800S I plan to buy soon.

Not a Tube amp, because of convenience. A combo unit of Amp+Dac is fine, and I have a budget of under 500 bucks. Of course, if I can spend less and still get most of the performance, I am happy with that as well. Used is fine as long as availability is good, but I would prefer new.

I will use the setup for everyday use (such as YouTube and movies) as well as focused music listening. My preference for sound is tighter bass that hits hard-ish but does not overpower the rest of the music, and an otherwise analytical sound.

Clarifying questions are welcome.

Thanks guys!

Edit: I should probably add I will have my entire setup plugged into my computer as a source

 

[haasaaroni]

Welcome to the forum Reverb! Do you currently have any DAC or amp? Or are you starting from scratch?

Not a Tube amp, because of convenience. A combo unit of Amp+Dac is fine, and I have a budget of under 500 bucks.

I am personally LOVING the Geshelli Archel 3 Pro ($450 base price) with my HD 8XX right now (and Gungnir as a source, but more on that later). I find the amp to have an excellent sound on its own (very spacious, reference/detailed, but with some good warmth and body to the tone), but the addition of simple bass/treble tone controls really sets it apart from other amps for me. Especially for videos on youtube, where the quality isn't always ideal, I can just tone down the treble or boost the bass, or both, as needed. Or I can bypass them completely when I want a more detail-forward/analytical sound.

Unfortunately, while the amp fits squarely in your budget, but it leaves no room for a DAC, let alone a DAC like my Gungnir. I would also recommend check out the Nitcsh Pietus Maximus with the included sabre DAC module. Here again, it's above your price range, but just by a little. You may be able to find a good used deal on one. I haven't heard one, but I hear the amp has a warmer, bass-forward tone, while still staying tight and controlled (Pietus Maximus owners can correct me). The lower level Piety could be a good entry level, but doesn't have room for a DAC module.

Or you could always get a good amp now (like the Archel 3 or Pietus Maximus without the DAC module) and worry about upgrading your DAC later.

Just a few options for ya

 

[ReverbLikeACave]

Welcome to the forum Reverb! Do you currently have any DAC or amp? Or are you starting from scratch?



I am personally LOVING the Geshelli Archel 3 Pro ($450 base price) with my HD 8XX right now (and Gungnir as a source, but more on that later). I find the amp to have an excellent sound on its own (very spacious, reference/detailed, but with some good warmth and body to the tone), but the addition of simple bass/treble tone controls really sets it apart from other amps for me. Especially for videos on youtube, where the quality isn't always ideal, I can just tone down the treble or boost the bass, or both, as needed. Or I can bypass them completely when I want a more detail-forward/analytical sound.

Unfortunately, while the amp fits squarely in your budget, but it leaves no room for a DAC, let alone a DAC like my Gungnir. I would also recommend check out the Nitcsh Pietus Maximus with the included sabre DAC module. Here again, it's above your price range, but just by a little. You may be able to find a good used deal on one. I haven't heard one, but I hear the amp has a warmer, bass-forward tone, while still staying tight and controlled (Pietus Maximus owners can correct me). The lower level Piety could be a good entry level, but doesn't have room for a DAC module.

Or you could always get a good amp now (like the Archel 3 or Pietus Maximus without the DAC module) and worry about upgrading your DAC later.

Just a few options for ya

I have a DAC + Amp Combo right now that I use with my current headphones, HD600s with a SoundBlaster G6X (this was purchased when I was not experienced enough to know/care that Amps and Dacs made a difference in sound). If its possible to use that as a DAC, and then the Geshelli Archel 3 Pro that you reccomend as the amp, and you dont think that will make a meaningful difference to sound, thats a solution that works for me.

I am interested to hear your thoughts on how much the Dac changes sound in general, as I still have minimal experience with using different Dac units

Edit: I should probably add I will have my entire setup plugged into my computer as a source

By the way, thanks for your reply!

 

[haasaaroni]

You're welcome!

If its possible to use that as a DAC, and then the Geshelli Archel 3 Pro that you reccomend as the amp, and you dont think that will make a meaningful difference to sound, thats a solution that works for me.

I would think that's possible, but I'm not familiar with the G6X, so I'm just not sure. It looks like it has an 1/8" out, which you could theoretically use a 1/8" to RCA cable to go into the inputs of the A3 Pro, but you'd want to find out first. Using the amp with no DAC at all (aka your computer's onboard DAC) is a gamble, and generally not recommended. But it can be a temporary step if you know you'll get a separate DAC in the future.

I am interested to hear your thoughts on how much the Dac changes sound in general, as I still have minimal experience with using different Dac units

Yeah, in terms of headphones, amps, and DACs, the headphones make the most difference in sound, followed by the amp, and finally a DAC change is a subtler still. But it's also a more significant change, because it affects the entire system (for example my Gungnir goes to my Pendant SE, A3 Pro, and desktop speakers, and of course all of the headphones I plug in). A DAC can make things sound harsh or smooth, increase or decrease the soundstage width and/or depth, tighten or blur the imaging, impart a flavor or aim for pure neutrality, heighten detail, basically everything an amp can do just on a subtler level. It's still quite noticeable to me though, especially between different DAC topologies (like R2R, sabre, AKM, multibit, etc), and I tried quite a few DACs before settling on my Gumby. Nothing else sounded quite right to me.

The 8XX series is also very sensitive to different amps and DACs, so you'll notice the changes pretty easily. I bought a pair of 800S when I only had a JDS Atom amp and Grace/Massdrop SDAC, it sounded sharp, boring, and distant. Now that I have a better setup, I went back to them again and they're a completely different experience.

 

[dunring]

I've had a few of them and they do well on a lot of stuff as long as it can handle the voltage swings in the bass region during busy tracks.
The Topping L50/E50 is a great stack for them. Use optical with no jitter penalty if you have noisy USB ports and it's amazing.

 

[ReverbLikeACave]

You're welcome!

I would think that's possible, but I'm not familiar with the G6X, so I'm just not sure. It looks like it has an 1/8" out, which you could theoretically use a 1/8" to RCA cable to go into the inputs of the A3 Pro, but you'd want to find out first. Using the amp with no DAC at all (aka your computer's onboard DAC) is a gamble, and generally not recommended. But it can be a temporary step if you know you'll get a separate DAC in the future.

Yeah, in terms of headphones, amps, and DACs, the headphones make the most difference in sound, followed by the amp, and finally a DAC change is a subtler still. But it's also a more significant change, because it affects the entire system (for example my Gungnir goes to my Pendant SE, A3 Pro, and desktop speakers, and of course all of the headphones I plug in). A DAC can make things sound harsh or smooth, increase or decrease the soundstage width and/or depth, tighten or blur the imaging, impart a flavor or aim for pure neutrality, heighten detail, basically everything an amp can do just on a subtler level. It's still quite noticeable to me though, especially between different DAC topologies (like R2R, sabre, AKM, multibit, etc), and I tried quite a few DACs before settling on my Gumby. Nothing else sounded quite right to me.

The 8XX series is also very sensitive to different amps and DACs, so you'll notice the changes pretty easily. I bought a pair of 800S when I only had a JDS Atom amp and Grace/Massdrop SDAC, it sounded sharp, boring, and distant. Now that I have a better setup, I went back to them again and they're a completely different experience.

Again, thanks for the detailed reply! I will definitely look at the Geshelli Archel 3 Pro, it looks like a compelling option.

Now that you have elegantly explained the Dac's effect on sound, I would like to request a more crude suplement to your explination. Say that the overall sound of a system is 100 sound points. How many of those points come from the Headphone, Amp, and Dac respectively? (For example, since you said the headphone has the largest effect on sound, it may represent 60 of the final 100 sound points, while the Amp represents 30, and the Dac 10. This is just a gues on my part, given as an example).

Also if you don't mind my asking, since you have been so kind as to answer with so much detail, should I really get a higher quality streaming service with this hypothetical setup? right now I listen to audio streamed at Bitrate: 256kbps AAC & OPUS, and I dont particularly want to pay for a service like Tidal or Deezer but clearly its not that I cant if I am buying these headphones, is it really worth it? Also a recomendation from what you have used is welcome, although this is something I can research on my own as well.

I really appreciate you being so helpful, I got to listen to a ton of different headphones (at CanJam and a few high end audio stores with demos) but not really compare the subtle effects of Amps, Dacs, or sources during my time listening, so my taste and impressions were based primarily off headphones.

 

[ReverbLikeACave]

I've had a few of them and they do well on a lot of stuff as long as it can handle the voltage swings in the bass region during busy tracks.
The Topping L50/E50 is a great stack for them. Use optical with no jitter penalty if you have noisy USB ports and it's amazing.

Thank you for the recommendation, I googled some reviews and these seem like a great option, especially since they fit in my budget! I will definitely add them to my list of possibilities.

Edit: Question about the E50 Dac, it says it has a "Pure Dac Mode" where it will not be volume ajustable, is there a reason I would want to have that etiher enabled or disabled?

 

[haasaaroni]

Again, thanks for the detailed reply! I will definitely look at the Geshelli Archel 3 Pro, it looks like a compelling option.

Now that you have elegantly explained the Dac's effect on sound, I would like to request a more crude suplement to your explination. Say that the overall sound of a system is 100 sound points. How many of those points come from the Headphone, Amp, and Dac respectively? (For example, since you said the headphone has the largest effect on sound, it may represent 60 of the final 100 sound points, while the Amp represents 30, and the Dac 10. This is just a gues on my part, given as an example).

Also if you don't mind my asking, since you have been so kind as to answer with so much detail, should I really get a higher quality streaming service with this hypothetical setup? right now I listen to audio streamed at Bitrate: 256kbps AAC & OPUS, and I dont particularly want to pay for a service like Tidal or Deezer but clearly its not that I cant if I am buying these headphones, is it really worth it? Also a recomendation from what you have used is welcome, although this is something I can research on my own as well.

I really appreciate you being so helpful, I got to listen to a ton of different headphones (at CanJam and a few high end audio stores with demos) but not really compare the subtle effects of Amps, Dacs, or sources during my time listening, so my taste and impressions were based primarily off headphones.

Nice! Yeah I’m happy to help out. Glad you got to go to CanJam. I think your question about DACs will ultimately be answered by trying different things out yourself. Read about the difference between class A amps, chip-based amps, discrete designs, various tube amps, impedance matching (your HD 800S will generally be happier with an amp with a higher output impedance, for example), multibit dacs, regular delta sigma dacs, R2R dacs, and with some or all of that, get a sense of what you might like and see if you were right. You’ll learn little by little, and that’s kinda the fun of it all!

I could give my broad estimate about percentage of influence of each component, like saying headphones give you 60% of the sound, amps 25%, and DACs the last 15%. But it’s not even very realistic. So much depends of the headphones (some are very sensitive and others not at all to different sources), the DAC and amp in question, the system, the files/streaking service used, the recordings, your own hearing, how much you care on a given day, etc. I’m afraid you’ve opened a Pandora’s box

As for steaming, I think lossless formats really do make a difference. To my ears anyway. I use Apple Music, which uses its own lossless format, but I prefer tidal, which is lowering its price for lossless streaming to $10.99/month in April. So I might switch back then