Curious about mini HiFis...
Dec 1, 2002 at 3:23 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 21

Joe Bloggs

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In electronics shops I usually ignore Mini-HiFis, preferring to drool over the few dedicated CDPs and SACDPs they carry (the Sony NS-700V comes to mind...) but recently I can't take my eyes off the price tag on some of these things... (e.g. $100 and claiming to be 'Hi-Fi'...)

So I gave a few of them a listen. The speakers on the units I auditioned ($100-150) were craptacular, as I expected
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but the headphone outputs actually sounded quite decent out of my etymotics ER4Ps.
smily_headphones1.gif


I wonder how the headphone outs on these things are made. Series resistor? If so, since the amps on some of these things are so low-powered (15wpc, 5wpc...) perhaps the series resistance is not that high?

Anyway, the most important question here is, what do you think about the headphone out on your mini-HiFis? What about using them as a source? (I hear some of them are pretty decent... e.g. kwkarth's system mentioned here)
 
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Dec 1, 2002 at 6:56 PM Post #2 of 21
What are we considering as minisystems? Do the speakers have to come with the unit? Many are using the NAD l40 with PSB alphas or the like with great results.
 
Dec 1, 2002 at 7:32 PM Post #3 of 21
The best "minisystem" I've ever heard was the Linn Klassik, but it's... um... kind of expensive
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Not too far below that, and MUCH cheaper, is the NAD Music System:

http://www.yawaonline.com/nadl40cdplay4.html

You won't find a better minisystem for $600, and you'd be hard-pressed to find used components for that price that sound better as a system. Oh, and it has a great headphone jack
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[Note: the original NAD Music System came with PSB Alpha Minis -- the above system includes PSB Alphas, which are a bit bigger.]

If $600 is out of your budget, the Denon DM-30 is also a pretty impressive minisystem, and runs around $350-$400. It's a definite step down from the NAD Music System, but still much better than most minisystems out there (it includes some nice Mission speakers).
 
Dec 1, 2002 at 7:36 PM Post #4 of 21
when you spend around 300-400 you can get a nice micro set. I got a nice JVC, which was top-o-the-line when I got it around 5 years ago and cost around 250. spend some more and get a Denon DM30 or a NAD. basically, you actually get music from setups like that, not some warbled unlistenable representation of what used to be music... pales in comparison to a decent headphone setup tho. headphone jacks on those systems are not very clean, but they do a nice job if you find a good one. find something with a line-out and it should outperform a PCDP with ease.
 
Dec 2, 2002 at 12:00 PM Post #5 of 21
I'm also in the process of finding a mini-hifi set for our kitchen.

I've looked at several and here are the current contenders (please note that I exclude the speakers from the comparison as I will not be using them):

Marantz Eclipse 19 set
http://www.marantz.com/p_product.cfm...=hf&series=sty
+ plays back cdr/cdrw and mp3 cds as well
+ decent sound quality (for a kitchen set!)
- a bit wimpy amp, may not drive lowest impedance speakers or big impedance swings properly

Denon 201SA
http://denon.jp/europe/201sa.html
+ plays cdr/cdrw (no mp3 playback though)
+ decent sound quality (for a kitchen set)
+ beefied amp
+ cheapest of the bunch

Sharp SD-SG 11H
http://www.sharp.co.uk/products/product.asp?id=449
+ Excellent sound quality compared to any other mini in the same price range - including Linn Classik (The best under 1500 USD mini reviewed by German 'Audio' magazine)
- comes with a minidisc player I don't need
smily_headphones1.gif


I've excluded the Classik from my choices, as it is too expensive (hard to find for the same price as the Sharp unit).

I'm still drawn by the price of Denon (cheapest), versatility of Eclipse (mp3 playback is decent in a kitchen system) and the sound quality of Sharp.

Can't have it all in one package, I guess.

regards,
Halcyon
 
Dec 2, 2002 at 2:31 PM Post #6 of 21
I'm looking for one mostly to use as source... although it's nice to get something that makes sound for a group of people too, and some sort of headphone jack to boot
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Oh well... I guess I should save up for the Sony NS700V
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... Right?

It's just that recently I've started to feel like an utter weirdo, getting ready to cough up $$$ for a separate headphone amp and CD player, when these mini HiFis go for half the price of either of these things and does everything they do and more
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Although the sound quality cannot compare... right?
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Now I'm gonna be called a weirdo HERE too
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J/K... I'm just venting about the price for this stuff... yeah that's right
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biggrin.gif
 
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Dec 2, 2002 at 5:32 PM Post #7 of 21
Joe, then you should seriously consider the Denon DM-30. The NAD system is much better, but costs more. The DM-30 has a very good CD player, a decent headphone jack, and sounds great when used as a source. Plus you get pretty good sound through its Mission speakers when you want to listen without headphones.
 
Feb 10, 2003 at 10:57 PM Post #8 of 21
Quote:

Originally posted by halcyon
Denon 201SA
http://denon.jp/europe/201sa.html
+ plays cdr/cdrw (no mp3 playback though)
+ decent sound quality (for a kitchen set)
+ beefied amp
+ cheapest of the bunch


Halcyon - I just stumbled upon this player while torturing myself (um, I mean idly browsing) the Audio Cubes site. It looks pretty sweet. I'm in the same boat as you, I suspect...looking for a good small source. Everyone seems to recommend the NAD L40, which is great, if by "minisystem" you mean "no external amp". I, on the other hand, really mean "small", which the NAD is not.

Did you ever pursue your small source dreams to a conclusion, and if so, what did you go with?

-Nadim
 
Feb 13, 2003 at 8:56 AM Post #9 of 21
Nadim,

I haven't bought the mini system yet.

I've been considering the Cayin set, although it's very expensive (for me):

http://www.cayin.de/amps_de/andere/h...HomeOdenum.htm

Coming down back to earth, I think I'll settle down for the Denon or Marantz, because I can get them locally (less hassle with warranty, if something goes wrong).

My problem is that it is almost impossible to demo these myself before buying, so I have to get by with recommendations alone.

regards,
Halcyon
 
Feb 13, 2003 at 12:17 PM Post #10 of 21
Don't forget Teac - the Reference Series 300 and 500 are nice. Like with the Denon 201SA series, you get proper mid-fi packed into well made small cases with the Teac stuff.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
Feb 13, 2003 at 3:26 PM Post #11 of 21
wow, that cayin stuff looks awesome. How much is it?
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Also, I was considering buying the Linn a while back, but after auditioning it (using my then MG Head and ety ER-4S), I found it wasn't as good as I thought it would be. I found it was lacking in the detail department quite a bit. Almost sounded muddled in comparison to the stand alone players I was comparing it to at the time. I may not have been the fairest comparison, but either way the Classik dropped really low on my list in terms of value.
 
Feb 13, 2003 at 7:49 PM Post #12 of 21
Quote:

Originally posted by MacDEF
Joe, then you should seriously consider the Denon DM-30. The NAD system is much better, but costs more. The DM-30 has a very good CD player, a decent headphone jack, and sounds great when used as a source. Plus you get pretty good sound through its Mission speakers when you want to listen without headphones.


I have the predecessor D-M3 in my office. I listened to everything that was available at the time before buying. It really is nice for the money, and the headphone jack is at least the equal of the best portables.

The major thing I dislike is that it doesn't sound that good at low volumes, and that's how I usually have to play it at work.

The minor things I don't like is the FM reception is not great, it has a hard time with scratched discs, and the remote is the easily the worst I've ever encountered.
 
Feb 13, 2003 at 8:56 PM Post #13 of 21
Quote:

It really is nice for the money, and the headphone jack is at least the equal of the best portables.


True, the dm-3's headphone jack sounds pretty nice, but at least on mine it was unbearably hissy. I got mine about 3 years ago, and it gave up the ghost this past january. I think it was due to static shock, because just the CD control board is fried; everything else works. weird..
 
Feb 14, 2003 at 8:33 AM Post #14 of 21
Well, I went back for the umpteenth time to my local mid-fi store with a bunch of CDs and my Ety 4p's, determined to get something small for work this time. I listened to the newish Denon D-F101 system, which is a step up from the DM-30 (at least in price, at $700). You know what? I was pretty disappointed. There were the small things, like it seemed to be a bit shy on features for the normally feature-rich Denon gear (no CD text, no mp3 CDs, etc.) There were the quirky things, like the bass/treble EQ went in steps of 2dB, not 1 like every other player I tried. And there were the less forgiveable things....like when you put the receiver on MD or AUX, play a CD, and crank the volume....you can actually clearly hear the CD! All the marketing literature about channel separation and such kinda falls flat when you fail that test. Also, you could hear audible clicking noise when you were listening to music and adjusted the volume. The worst, though, was that the headphone jack was pretty noisey. Now keep in mind, I like Denon gear, and am very happy with my 4802 receiver at home, so I *wanted* to like the denon, and based on reviews & reccos here, went in expecting it to be the best at that store. Note that a lot of the good press that the Denon mini's receive may well be due to the better speakers that come with it, but I was listening exclusively through headphones, as I am planning on using it in a headphone-only capacity (at work).

Next I listened to the Yamaha MCR-300 that was near the denon, and close to half the price ($400). Comparing side-by-side, the output jack was noticeably cleaner, in that the noise floor was imperceptable, i.e. lower than (the background level at the store - Ety 4p attenuation). Musically, the two were pretty close. My ears aren't well trained (I'm working on it, but it's not easy), but I couldn't detect a lot of obvious differences. Definitely the Denon's noisier output got on my nerves. Perhaps there was a touch more definition in the HF on the Denon, but overall the noise made it less enjoyable. Feature-wise, the Yamaha was similar, although the Yamaha had CD text (which is nice because I like to keep my originals safe, and I add CD text from CDDB/freeDB when I burn copies). Also, the Yamaha allows you to fast-forward/rewind without the remote, unlike the Denon DM-30 (which I'd played with in the past, but wasn't available to A-B at this store). The Yamaha has a nice analog volume control (whereas the Denon's volume, while a rotary knob, is actually digital), but I felt it was too sensitive...the useable range is pretty small, as it gets very loud, very quick on the headphone jack when you take it past 1/4 way up. Another little annoyance on the Yamaha was that you couldn't actually toggle between CD text and the time without the remote. I know these are little, unimportant things to most people, but if you're using this as a work system, and you're sitting 1 foot from the thing, it sure would be nice to actually have full functionality without looking for the remote buried under papers on your desk...

I next listened, for kicks, to a cool-looking but cheap Sony (the CMT-EX5). Now we've pretty much halved the cost again, at $180. It's got the new-wave styling, with a vertical CD slot where you can see the disc spinning. Kind of cool, but possibly distracting, and not good if you'd be embarrased to have your co-workers know what you're listening too (a warning for closet Britney Spears / Spice Girls / Hansen / <insert name of shudder-inducing band here> fans). Immediately I got a bad vibe, because the headphone jack is on the back of the unit, which to me implies "afterthought". But when I fired it up, I found to my surprise that it was just as silent as the Yamaha...better than the $700 Denon. I'm not sure what to make of this. I wasn't happy with the sound, though...boomy, prominent bass kind of took center-stage. I was gonna give up and move on, but noticed a tell-tale flag in the Sony's display. Apparently, it comes factory-preset with their DSG (Dynamic Sound Generation), aka "Loudness" set on. This is probably to compensate for the wimpy speakers it comes with. It took a salesman a few minutes to find a remote (you can't turn it off from the front panel...but that's okay, because once it's off, it stays off), but after that, the sound was much improved.

Honestly, though it might brand me as a heretic, or just a n00b, I found the Sony's headphone jack (note...we're still not talking about speakers here...they're definitely the worst of the lot) to be every bit as good as the Yamaha. I sat there, looking foolish to the store staff (but oblivious...I just love the Ety's!), going back and forth for upwards of an hour, listening to Massive Attack, the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra, Shirley Bassey, etc., and found that I really couldn't tell any noticeable difference in sound quality between the Yamaha and the Sony. I went back to the Denon a couple times as well...each time it made me impressed (confused) by the cleaner, less noisy output of the cheaper systems. I do feel that aside from the noise, though, the Denon might be a little livelier and more engaging, but it was hard to tell.

Anyway....in the end I couldn't justify the extra expense of going with the one I wanted to be better (the Yamaha), when it simply didn't sound better, at least to me. The Sony has an analog out (albeit a phono jack, not RCA plugs) for upgrading with an amp, and an optical out for upgrading with a DAC and amp. I'll probably be exploring those options once I finally get off my butt and order some good closed cans for work.

The Sony has been sitting at work with me now for the last couple of days, and I haven't had any pangs of regret yet (except that I don't have enough space for the NAD L40, of course). I dunno if it will help anyone else in a similar situation, or just invalidate me as a critical listener, but that was my experience...

-Nadim
 
Feb 14, 2003 at 10:23 PM Post #15 of 21
Hey Nadim --

I really liked your reviews of the minisystems, and the types of features you discussed are the ones I most care about too. I'm not at all surprised that the sony electronics perform the same as or better than more expensive or prestige-label equipment. Sony can and will make stuff like that if they feel like it and if they think anyone will care enough so that it will translate into sales. People like you buying it only helps to give them incentive to build quality mass market stereos. So you did us all a big favor.
smily_headphones1.gif



Quote:

Originally posted by Nadim

The Sony has been sitting at work with me now for the last couple of days, and I haven't had any pangs of regret yet (except that I don't have enough space for the NAD L40, of course). I dunno if it will help anyone else in a similar situation, or just invalidate me as a critical listener, but that was my experience...

-Nadim


 

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