cup tuning basics.

[stratocaster]

I am most interested in your impressions on finishes, especially inner wall finishes. I have never used oils, waxes or laquers on inner walls of my wood shells. I only applied the stuff outside, mostly for aesthetic reasons I must admit.
It is obvious that the material of the shell is effecting the sound. Anybody who has tried the same drivers in wood and alu cups can report on that. The wall surface should have an effect too. If you do not cover it with any substance, you will still have the sound waves hitting different surfaces, causing all sorts of sound changes. Subtle, I would think, but they should still be there. Now, learning more about sound implications of different finishes, the synergy with certain woods, comprehensible and repeatable methods of applying the coating, etc. are all very interesting topics I would like to learn more about. Nobody has ever put as much work and energy into this as you already have. Chapeau, man!
 

 

[thelostMIDrange]

strato seems to be one of the few who seems to get what' i'm trying to do here.............finishes will indeed be the most researched area for me from here on out. I feel I have the most synergystic woods, learned how to make the cups quickly, but finishes is what will make this reference class. If you just crank out limba cups with no attention to getting the finish to jive, you will have upper middle class grado music. Which is great. But I didn't go down this path to settle for that...........and to that end, the universe seemed to gather its energy into a fine focus this morning because I stumbled on the absolute perfect rubber material for the driver isolation idea. Comes in 1/16" and 1/8", This will be epoxyed in between either two pieces of limba or a limba/maple hybrid.
 

 

[t-crisis]

I have a rather strange question... What did it take for you guys (particularly lostMIDrange and Stratocaster) to become so good at noticing the extremely fine details each cup uniquely presents? I have spent a lot of time with music, perhaps not so much with hi-fi equipment because for a long time I had no idea this world of headphones existed, and I am familiar with most of my music. However, it seems as though the more I listen to my favorite songs the less I notice the small details and the more normal they sound...
Now when I A/B my modded SR80s with my Magnums, I can definitely pick out the differences but it seems as though you guys can describe changes in sound (not to mention that the comparisons you are making are between two very similar wood cups) that I have never even heard of or even have the capability of picking up.
 
Is it something that just takes time, or is it a natural talent?
 
Sorry to veer off, but I am just amazed at the small details you have been able to point out and I would like to be able to do the same.
 

 

[thelostMIDrange]

I can't speak for strato, but the nature of music sound has been my main passion since I was ten years old (42 now) when I got my first cheap technics linear drive turntable. I have been fascinated by it ever since, developed a personal philosophy around it, almost a religion. I think the history of sound and it's evolution tells us alot about the nature of society. The tube days, golden era of audio, turntables, the invention of the cd player and the digital revolution, it's super dynamic range and stripping away of midrange in the name of pseudo 'clarity', and now what seems to be a return full circle to an interest in more organic, analog midrange oriented sounds with renewed interest in the general population for turntables, analog and tap recording of music in the studio etc. Music and it's sound also says something about the tendency towards dehumanizing qualities within a culture. I truly believe alot of people really do not know what a natural sound is anymore. I believe human beings are not all the same in their human'ess and ability to feel and be in touch with 'reality' for lack of a better word. The culture puts alot of pressure on people to become machinelike to serve the cultures goals.....................Plus my pop was into it. He always had mcintosh gear and acoustic research speakers and that type of gear has a magical quality to it. A kind of midrange that blooms and has emotional detail, not so much super clarity for the sake of clarity, but midrange clarity and naturalness. And this is one of the hardest things to achieve in audio, Just creating a flat sounding sound with bass and treble extension is easier to achive imo, but it doesn't do music justice because the midrange is where the emotional connection is made......so I have that interest, am a woodworker as a profession and have a BA in psychology. In a way this is my calling. I was destined to be a cup tuner !

 

[t-crisis]

Quote:

I can't speak for strato, but the nature of music sound has been my main passion since I was ten years old (42 now) when I got my first cheap technics linear drive turntable. I have been fascinated by it ever since, developed a personal philosophy around it, almost a religion. I think the history of sound and it's evolution tells us alot about the nature of society. The tube days, golden era of audio, turntables, the invention of the cd player and the digital revolution, it's super dynamic range and stripping away of midrange in the name of pseudo 'clarity', and now what seems to be a return full circle to an interest in more organic, analog midrange oriented sounds with renewed interest in the general population for turntables, analog and tap recording of music in the studio etc. Music and it's sound also says something about the tendency towards dehumanizing qualities within a culture. I truly believe alot of people really do not know what a natural sound is anymore. I believe human beings are not all the same in their human'ess and ability to feel and be in touch with 'reality' for lack of a better word. The culture puts alot of pressure on people to become machinelike to serve the cultures goals.....................Plus my pop was into it. He always had mcintosh gear and acoustic research speakers and that type of gear has a magical quality to it. A kind of midrange that blooms and has emotional detail, not so much super clarity for the sake of clarity, but midrange clarity and naturalness. And this is one of the hardest things to achieve in audio, Just creating a flat sounding sound with bass and treble extension is easier to achive imo, but it doesn't do music justice because the midrange is where the emotional connection is made......so I have that interest, am a woodworker as a profession and have a BA in psychology. In a way this is my calling. I was destined to be a cup tuner !

That is awesome. I only wish I had the same level of passion for and understanding of music as you do. 
 
Haha I like that last part especially

 

[thelostMIDrange]

I don't recall ever wishing to have this passion, I just follow and listen to the little man inside.  I'm sure you have a passion and natural talent for something. You just have to be quiet and listen. Listening is an art that can be developed. Listening to music, others, the little man inside etc it's all the same skill. It's a kind of meditation. quiet the big man (ego) thoughts, and the little man can be heard. He only whispers.

 

[thelostMIDrange]

 
 
I have settled on 2 woods, limba  and tiger maple. Starting to pull out of scrutinization mode, no more single cup testing, will have to commit to a finish and make a full set.
 
Am building a set in limba with the 1/16" rubber driver isolation gasket now.......

 

[thelostMIDrange]

I just do not understand how these things work.....I spent some time making some cups with a rubber ring. I also made them a little bigger, so the thickness of the walls is more. they are longer too...so 3 different variables here. I will have to make a set of the smaller with thinner walls to figure out if that rubber ring is responsible, but the larger set with the ring sound dead compared to the smaller which are so sweet. Much more alive, more delicate, nuance all of it. the set with the ring have a very full sound but not nearly as much definition or articulation. They are entirely different sounds. Same basic e/q but apart from that, they are not even similar....I just do not understand how these small things can make such a big difference.....It's the same wood. no finish. I tested these with both drivers, not one...The small set with the thin walls is just about perfect in every way. You might think the longer bigger set with the thicker walls would have more bass and better bass articulation. totally opposite. the little ones are sweet in the bass, very articulate and weighty.
 
Part of me wants to learn more and get a handle on these things and another part says, are you masochistic, how could things be improved over these smaller limba cups? But at the very least, the world should know all these things matter a great deal. I will be sending these to sluker and maybe some others so at least i am not the only one on the planet that knows about these things. Maybe others will believe me after a 2nd more respected member verifies that these things matter. But I will make a set of the smaller cups with the ribber ring tonight. If it proves that the rubber ring is responsible for the dead sound, that would mean we want the cup to vibrate which just doesn't make sense but that must be the case. Really the same thing if it turns out it's the extra thickness that is deadnening the sound......the walls of the smaller cups are quite thin maybe 1/16 to and 1/8. the walls of the larger cup are closer to 1/4 maybe 3/16

 

[liamstrain]

I wonder if the thinner walls are not just reflecting, but also resonating (like an instrument). Which would explain why the rubber isolation was deadening the effect. Would also explain more the reasons why finish has such an effect - we know, for instance, that the type and thickness of varnish can significantly affect the resonance of a violin... 
 
 

 

[thelostMIDrange]

YES YES YES YES YES..............I am coming to that exact conclusion ! this is an absolute revelation to me.I did everything wrong on that last cup. I added the rubber ring, deadened the sound, i made the walls thicker deadened the sound some more !
 
WE WANT THE CUP TO VIBRATE
 
WE WANT THE CUP TO VIBRATE SYMPATHETICALLY
 
THIS IS WHY ALL TEH FINISHES I'VE BEEN PUTTING ON RUIN THE SOUND
 
THE WALLS HAVE TO BE A CERTAIN THICKNESS AND THE FINISH NEEDS TO ALLOW THE CUP TO VIBRATE LIKE IT DOES IN RAW FORM
 
THIS IS A MINDBLOWER TO ME
 
THANK YOU LIAMSTRAM, I WAS TALKING THIS OVER WITH MY WIFE BEFORE I READ YOUR POST AND CAME TO THE SAME CONCLUSION. IT'S STRANGE HOW WHEN I RETURNED
 
TO THE COMPUTER YOU SUGGESTED THE SAME THING
 
THE CAPS ARE HERE FOR A REASON. THIS IS LIKE DISCOVERING THE EARTH IS ROUND AND NOT FLAT !

 

[thelostMIDrange]

YES ON THE FINISH TOO. NOW ALL WE NEED TO DO IS FOCUS ON THE WALL GEOMOMETRY AND THE FINISH.
I THINK THE OILS I'VE BEEN USING ARE ALL WRONG. AT LEAST ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE CUP, I DON'T KNOW WHAT FINISH WILL GIVE ME WHAT I WANT. YOU SAY VARNISH IS WHAT THEY USE ON VIOLINS SO I GUESS THAT WOULD BE THE FIRST THING TO TRY.

 

[thelostMIDrange]

I think I'm going to search out a violin maker here in seattle and have him help me finish the cups............

 

[liamstrain]

very thin varnish. there have been murders over the family varnish recipes over the centuries...
 
I've been trying to sketch out the required geometries, but I keep defaulting to backloaded horn speaker designs, which need to accomplish something else. I'll have to ponder.
 
Has anyone published the various specs for the grado drivers (Fs, Vas, Q values, etc.) They may not be as relevant in a headphone, but I'm working with what I know. 

 

[thelostMIDrange]

it seems, headphone cups are instruments. they are part of the vibration. they should be moving with the music. they don't just hold the driver in place. they are absolutely key to getting musical sounds. they are very delicate. i noticed just when i coved in the walls of my last set things seemed to change. i only changed it by a 1/16 or so in thinckness but when i handle the cups it's very apparant they are thinner, very delicate feeling compared to the cups ive been making. that last big set of cups was the first time i made the walls quite that thick. this just goes to show it's ok to make mistakes because they teach you what not to do, and by doing the opposite, teach you what to do ! i love it . i'm so excited !

 

[thelostMIDrange]

i am suspecting that i want the walls to vary in thickness because if you look at my smaller cups, there is a cove towards the middle, it's quite thin at that point.....and these cups really transfer delicate nuance moreso than any other cup i've made......i wonder if it's thinner do i then want to change the length of the the overall cup?