[imz14u2nv]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Dave And while I'm pontificating (must have forgotten my meds today): The audiophiles who hang out on Headfi etc. may perceive a difference in sound quality between DAPs because it is a hobby, but the reality is that the differences are very small. i have now owned Apple, Creative, IRiver and Archos and while the sound signatures are slightly different I am hard-pressed to say one is materially better (I listen through Ety ER4Ps and UE SuperFi Pros for you snobs who are about to slam me). My point is that sound quality is not going to provide a basis for competing successfully unless someone comes up with something that really differentiates the sound. It is about appearance, ease of use, size and perhaps battery life. Lets face it, there's a reason Apple is winning.

Old Dave,
I am currently looking to buy my first true standalone DAP (I currently user my Palm Treo 650 with Pocket Tunes Deluxe with 1 and 2GB SD Cards). I use this with my Shure E5C IEM’s and honestly I think is sounds great.

The only reason that I am looking for a player at this point is because:

1). The Treo 650 is limited to reading 2GB SD’s due to the FAT16 file system used (I hate swapping cards).

2). I never listen to music flat (I always use EQ), sounds to dead for me. When I boost the bass, the sound will sometimes take on some distortion; I figured a top quality standalone player would handle this better.

Unlike a lot of consumers that just want to own an ipod for status, I am really only concerned with sound quality.

I had started a thread and would be pleased if you could give some advice, as you have owned various brands of player personally.

 

[blessingx]

If anyone is curious how iRiver is doing also, their profits dropped 84.5 percent (from year ago).

 

[Old Dave]

IMZ etc. Thanks for asking. I hope it is all right to post here. My (humble) opinion is that different DAPs have slightly different sound signatures, but that these differences pale in comparison with the changes produced by using different earphones and bit rates. Also, when you play around with the equalizer you create different sound signatures that are much more distinctive than the differences between players. Finally, different combinations of DAPs and earphones create different sound signatures, so it is hard to say any particular DAP is better or worse.

OK, so I had a Creative Jukebox and a Muvo and I thought both sounded good out of my Etys, at higher bit rates. My son has an IPod and when I listen to it, I think it sounds good out of my UE's but I notice a slight (emphasize slight) reduction in bass out of my Etys. But, of course, he buys his music from I-Tunes so it is lower bit rate, making the comparison somewhat meaningless. I have an IRiver flash player (can't remember the number sitting here) that I use with Shure E3s to work out. The E3s are not my favorite, but when I checked the IRiver out with my Etys, it sounded great. My current player of choice (primarily because of small size) for other than the gym is the Archos xs200, which I think sounds great with both my Etys and UE Super Fi's. And I use different equalizer settings with each based on what sounds good to me at the moment. So, there you have it. My advice is to buy the player that has the user interface and size/form factor you like the best, and then focus on the earphones for getting the sound you want. But most of all, try to stop analyzing the music and enjoy it. that is the biggest problem with this hobby if you ask me.

 

[Disiskurt]

Has Creative shown us anything suggesting that they can make a truly great player? The Zen/Zen Xtra was a brick, Zen Touch was a (poor) response to the 4G iPod touch wheel, the Zen Micro....well, you get the picture.

The thing is, Creative has always been countering Apple after the fact with more inferior mp3 players. So if they plan to jack up the prices, who will be buying them? Well, maybe those who absolutely refuse to get an iPod, but even those people could get a Sony or Archos. The thing is, Creative has been anything but for a while now, and if they continue down the road of making crappy copy-cats of Apple players, they're cooked.

Seriously, the only things I've heard the Creative players are better at are battery life and (supposedly) slightly better sound quality. And maybe the rest of the mp3 player market hasn't realized it, but iTunes makes a big difference in Apple's sales. As far as I know, Creative and Rio's music manager's were terrible. And let's not forget the grand-daddy of crap transfer/management software: Sonicstage.

 

[PodMan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disiskurt And let's not forget the grand-daddy of crap transfer/management software: Sonicstage.

Haha, most people refer to sonicstage as the most horrible software, but not many have used its predecessor: OpenMG Jukebox. This is where they employed the library system of transferring a song only 3 times to minidisc before you have to check it back in by deleting it off the disc in order to transfer it again. Of course most people just deleted the song entry from its database and reimported it again to remove the limit. But Sony decided this was the best way to curb piracy. Also the interface was one of the worst ever and it would be nice if it didnt crash in the middle of every transfer.

 

[MrCookie989]

Quote:

Anyway Mr Cookie.... can you please tell me if it is worth upgrading from the Jukebox 3 to the new Zen series? Especially considering how much I am already satisfied with the SQ and UI? Will the new Zen players will allow me to use my old school firmware from my Nomad Jukebox? If not, I will have to consider switching to a whole new brand. But which one? I have heard good things about the iAudo and iRiver players, but how do they compare sound quality-wise to the Nomad Jukebox 3 players? And do they alllow the user to do the same things that the Jukebox 3 does as far sound effects and features are concerned?

isamu, as long as you are satisfied with the SQ and UI (good call on the 1.32.02 firmware, I hated the changes also) I dont see a real reason to buy a new player from iAudio or iRiver, hell not even Creative. My Zen Touch doesnt sound as good as my NBJ3 and it has fewer features and a crappier interface (You cant use the old school firmware BTW

) . Actually a real reason to get an iAudio player would be very nice lossless support and solid firmware updates that fix flaws and add features. The iRiver players I've played around dont have any features that appeal to me in any way, but they seem solid enough. Both players that I've heard the most from each company (the M3 and the H10) didnt sound as good as the NBJ3. The iAudio X5 features a lot of sound effects and features, and iRiver players feature some SRS WOW options (but I kinda hate em). Dammit I wish Rio was still around, because the Karma was a great player and I loved mine as much as my NBJ3. So basically, if you are still happy with your Jukebox and its still kicking (mine lasted 2 years then the LCD screen broke), then by all means stick with it. If you want a new player and your primary concerns are SQ, UI and features I can only recommend the Karma as a worthy replacement (and they are quite a steal now), but if you want something from an actual company in business, go with the iAudio X5.

 

[DigDub]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disiskurt Has Creative shown us anything suggesting that they can make a truly great player? The Zen/Zen Xtra was a brick, Zen Touch was a (poor) response to the 4G iPod touch wheel, the Zen Micro....well, you get the picture. The thing is, Creative has always been countering Apple after the fact with more inferior mp3 players. So if they plan to jack up the prices, who will be buying them? Well, maybe those who absolutely refuse to get an iPod, but even those people could get a Sony or Archos. The thing is, Creative has been anything but for a while now, and if they continue down the road of making crappy copy-cats of Apple players, they're cooked. Seriously, the only things I've heard the Creative players are better at are battery life and (supposedly) slightly better sound quality. And maybe the rest of the mp3 player market hasn't realized it, but iTunes makes a big difference in Apple's sales. As far as I know, Creative and Rio's music manager's were terrible. And let's not forget the grand-daddy of crap transfer/management software: Sonicstage.

lol. what copying apple's ipod? does an ipod have customisable eq, radio, built-in mic? how about apple for copying creative in coming out with an mp3 player eh? yea, you, like most ipod fans out there, would probably defend how mic and radio and custom eq are not useful because apple decidess you don't need them, like how apple didn't implement video in their ipods and everybody felt video on a tiny screen was useless and how pathetic battery life is. but when apple comes up with an ipod that plays video, suddenly video on a small screen becomes all the rage. guesss what will happen if ipod do come up with radio, a built-in mic and a custom eq?

one thing that creative could make use of is their soundblaster and x-fi brands, which have already been quite well-established.

 

[DJ Mauler]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DigDub lol. what copying apple's ipod? does an ipod have customisable eq, radio, built-in mic? how about apple for copying creative in coming out with an mp3 player eh? yea, you, like most ipod fans out there, would probably defend how mic and radio and custom eq are not useful because apple decidess you don't need them, like how apple didn't implement video in their ipods and everybody felt video on a tiny screen was useless and how pathetic battery life is. but when apple comes up with an ipod that plays video, suddenly video on a small screen becomes all the rage. guesss what will happen if ipod do come up with radio, a built-in mic and a custom eq? one thing that creative could make use of is their soundblaster and x-fi brands, which have already been quite well-established.

im going to co-sign, because now people are like kewl now i can have skate tapes etc on my ipod.. i was like yo bro the Iriver H320/H340 have been able to do that for a long while already.... then i get a blank look on their faces.

 

[xcryonicx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Dave But most of all, try to stop analyzing the music and enjoy it. that is the biggest problem with this hobby if you ask me.

I can't agree with you more on this. I really hope that when some of you go to concerts, you actually enjoy the music and not critique the sound

 

[LFC_SL]

Its marketing

In UK, I have only seen iPod adverts on the TV

In newspapers, I've only seen iPod and Sony

How are the general public meant to find out about iRiver, Cowon, Samsung + Creative?

 

[blessingx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LFC_SL How are the general public meant to find out about iRiver, Cowon, Samsung + Creative?

Well that's the point of marketing,

but for what it's worth there are big iRiver and Creative billboards where I live and Creative even has brick and mortar outlets in the form of Cambridge Soundworks stores. Not to mention every store but Apples has other players right next to the iPods.

Don't want to turn this into 3894562nd thread of iPod fanboyism/anti-iPod cult, but it's more than just marketing. People keep forgetting the ease that is iTunes (and a lesser extent iTMS). That far more than marketing is responsible for the Shuffle succuss for instance (I think many here think either consumers are brainless zombies or they completely missed that there is no screen

- pretty simplistic view on members front). Independent if it's anyone heres cup of tea or not (remember we're not 'normal'), Apple seems like it's the company that most takes the users experience into account (and although I'd love gapless and customized EQ, iTunes is a much bigger deal to the general public - who members here cry that Apples not listening to). I'm shocked that especially Sony and Creative hasn't just copied iTunes (well Sony is finally getting around to it), 'cause it's not that difficult to do. Thing is we're gadget junkies so focused on player. From that perspective it's not the gen public that's blind, we are. It's only half the equation to most. It's easy to explain away the iPods success as marketing or style over substance (the repeated ad nausium comment), but that's just a lazy cop out if you ask me.

 

[Beach123456]

Creative needs to stop following in Apples wake and trying to release their own versions of what apple puts out. It really isnt going to work, especially when you put out a "worse" version of what apple puts out. They need to steer out of apples wake, stop adding maybe one feature to their new players, and make something completly different that apple doesnt have. All their recent players have been the same as the one before it, maybe adding a color screen, or even just a new look, like going from the touch to the sleek. They are almost the exact same thing, just different size and look. If they do something original they wont end up six feet under in a few years.

 

[LFC_SL]

All fair points

But unlike the big US of A, the UK public aren't aware of other manufacturers till they see them on the website or store.

People aren't gonna buy what they don't know!

They probably think they're some cheap asian knock offs!

 

[Dominode]

Quote:

Has Creative shown us anything suggesting that they can make a truly great player? The Zen/Zen Xtra was a brick, Zen Touch was a (poor) response to the 4G iPod touch wheel, the Zen Micro....well, you get the picture.

The only picture I "get" clearly here is another mild anti-Creative rant in progress. And what exactly is your unexpressed squawk or beef regarding the Zen Micro based on? And no,ellipses don't clarify your point,or lack of one.
I'll hazard a guess based on other 3rd.person comments your post refers to and state that you've never actually used a Micro,let alone listened to music through one. Have you? So your Micro shot serves as the transition to your next premise,which is this:

Quote:

The thing is, Creative has always been countering Apple after the fact with more inferior mp3 players. So if they plan to jack up the prices, who will be buying them?

To me this reads like an unqualified opinion dove-tailed into negative speculation and ending in a rhetorical question,ie. "who will be buying them"?

Countering Apple after the fact with "inferior mp3 players"? Oh my. If I recall,Creative beat Apple to the flash drive market. I remember examining many of the small capacity (1gig or less) MP3 players many months ago before buying one. Apple's offering was the Shuffle. You know,the sleek,minimalist syling,the tidy packaging,the mindless marketing tagline of "Enjoy the uncertainty" offered as some palliative, click-wheel like spin on the fact that it had no LCD screen and ZERO playback options other than "random" and volume control? For slightly more money, the Muvo Slim offered a screen,an EQ,an FM tuner,voice recording capability,and several playback options in addition to random. It also sounded better,though not as loud as the Shuffle. To clinch the deal,Creatives' accessories,ie. an A/C fast charger,were priced less than the Shuffles. So (duh...) I bought the Muvo Slim.

And I'm sure class-action suites regarding battery defects and the Nano's scratch-magnet charms are "superior MP3 product" milestones which Creative has yet to best Apple on. I won't bother to mention the patent suit Apples lost to Creative on the UI (user interface). I imagine that will be an expensive back-door settlement for Apple to Creative...

Quote:

Seriously, the only things I've heard the Creative players are better at are battery life and (supposedly) slightly better sound quality.

I think every MP3 maker overstates their battery life,or "sells" it based on very low quality files and modest volume levels. High bit-rate files drain the battery more quickly,particularly on HDD based MP3 players. So,based on my experience with a Muvo Slim and a Micro, I'd rate battery life satisfactory to good. And to my ears (and yes,I've listened to several Apple products), I choose the Muvo Slim and my Zen Micro based on sound quality first,and features second. I use Shure E4's with the Slim (EQ'd) and E5's with my micro,amped or otherwise.

Quote:

As far as I know, Creative and Rio's music manager's were terrible.

I can't speak for Rio's (have not used it),but I think Creative's are far from terrible,in fact pretty decent,if not things of coded beauty. Perhaps if you have a friend with a Zen Micro and current firmware updates you could have a look for yourself; "were" might be accurate,if not current. In fact,the next time you're feeling a bit more objective,why don't you find a Cambridge Soundworks (plenty in your area) and have a look and a listen? Then you can post back and use the active,1st person perspective, as in " I heard,I listened to",etc.,instead of paraphrasing thoughts expressed by others?

I think you're closer than you think to doing that. I note on your sig. that you use an E-Mu 1212M soundcard -far from the standard computer fare.
Did you know that Creative and E-Mu were the primary developers of the Xi-Fi card? And that Creative sells all of the E-Mu cards? Go to Creative's website and have a look at their professional series soundcard offerings.
Apple's never been forthcoming on basics such as stating SNR,or THD,or Channel Separation. Rhetorically,I ask you, why? Is this another variation of "enjoy the uncertainty"?

I for one am certainly eager to see Creative's Xi-Fi soundcard technology trickling down within the next year into their DAP's. I don't think that Apple will have an answer on the sound quality front,and that Ipod bandwagon will get a bit lighter, one convert at a time. People,especially those here,will certainly pay a premium for a better product. I think you would too,even if it was made by Creative,and not Apple.

 

[blessingx]

True LFC_SL. Exception would be Creative though 'cause for whatever reason at least in the US and certainly good chuck of Asia (not sure about Europe) Creative is well known.

In a lot of respects Sim Wong Hoo is the anti-Steve Jobs (though I reserve that spot for any CEO of Dell for other reasons), however if there is a Jobs Reality Distortion Field that the press & public follow along, there's a Hoo Reality Distortion Field that no one believes. It's always entertaining though.

On the advertising/marketing front, college courses should probably be taught on how not to flush money down the toilet...

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